Discussion:
Zorba the "Greek"
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Zhivko Apostolovski
2005-01-18 10:57:44 UTC
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A bit lenghty, but a self explanatory article.

Zorba the Greek Unmasked: Chorba the Macedonian

by Dr. Alex K. Gigeroff, Ph.D.

Originally published September, 1990

To make a good soup you have to collect the ingredients and cook it very slowly.

My Dedo Naumche was born in Macedonia way back about 1870. I never met him but I've heard lots about him. Sometimes I think about him. Apparently he really liked soup and I imagine that he enjoyed it ever since he was a child. He enjoyed soup as an experience and everything that went into making and eating it. He enjoyed the whole process. He loved having food in the house. He enjoyed the aroma of the dish as it bubbled and simmered slowly in the big pot that hung on a rack in the fireplace. And just as much, he loved that first taste, every mouthful and particularly the last spoonful.

In my mind's eye, I can see him when he had finished his soup that he had eaten with home made bread. I see him brushing aside his long moustache to either side of his face with the back of his hand and hear his sigh of satisfaction. I am sure that at moments like that he was a contented man who knew two essential things: who he was and what he liked.

The soup he liked best was a "CHORBA". It is sometimes made using a cow's belly or tripe. It's a robust lively soup, a soup that sings in the mouth, that makes the taste buds come alive and dance up and down. It is a soup tasty beyond belief and fully satisfying. Chorba is a man's soup, and women love it. Who wouldn't? It gives such life-giving energy to everyone.

It's easy enough to make: Wash the tripe and boil it then simmer it with salt, garlic and black pepper; add a cup of hot broth spoonful by spoonful into a bowl of two beaten eggs, some lemon juice and do this slowly so the mix doesn't curdle; add a cup of light cream into the mix and then pour the whole thing back into the pot stirring all the while. Of course, while the tripe is simmering you can add whatever vegetables you wish. To dress it up sprinkle the top with whatever happens to be around like some chopped green onions or leeks, some chives or some parsley. Voila! There you have it, "CHORBA".

Other countries might have different names for it. Certainly Chorba does not have an international reputation. But if it were advertised widely enough, given some publicity, show famous movie stars eating it in a movie, give it an eye catching name, why it could become as famous as anything. It could become as famous as "Zorba The Greek" and known the world over. It might even become popular. But it would still be Chorba as we know it.

But enough about soup. Let's change the subject.

Changing Names

People sometimes change their names, especially when their original names are not socially or politically acceptable. There was a lot of name, changing in our part of the world. Common Macedonian names were transformed slightly so that they would appear to sound and look more Greek, or more Serbian or more Bulgarian. It all depended on which one of the surrounding nations had occupied which part of Macedonia after 1913. So totally did the neighbours divide up Macedonia, that there was no Macedonia left. Although Macedonia appeared on maps for thousands of years it very suddenly vanished. But it continued to exist in history, in people's minds and in people's hearts. In the long run these are the most important places.

The Macedonian people were still there, those who hadn't emigrated and spread throughout the world. But the Macedonians who remained were fearful, and with good reason, to call themselves Macedonians or to use their historic names.

The skies were to darken even further for the Macedonians in Greece. As most Macedonians know and as the world is slowly learning, in and around 1928 the Greek government began to change all Macedonian village names to Greek names. And they did that for the mountain ranges and for the rivers. Thousands of years of history were wiped out with a pen for the government wanted the territory to 'look' like Greece. For example, the village where my grandfather Naumche was born, Oshchima, probably meaning 'there is still more' was changed to Trigona, Greek for 'Three Corners'. It was a new name plucked out of the air! Not very imaginative either, but the significance of the change was enormous.

Seeing which way the political boundaries had shifted, watching how historic place names were being changed all around them, seeing how the Greek language was being pushed throughout the schools, the people realized quickly enough that their whole way of life at the dominant political level had shifted and changed. Many frightened people for honest reasons of survival did a quick make-up job on their own names as well.

Abracadabra! Greeks seemed to rise up everywhere where only Macedonians had lived for many, many centuries. Many people fled, those who could, to surrounding countries, and to Canada, the U.S.A. and to Australia and elsewhere. But those who could not escape began TO DISGUISE THEMSELVES for protection from the government under new, Greek-sounding names.

Survival, survival, stoic survival is the strength of peasants. Not only survival against the chance devastations of weather, storms, floods, but survival in the face of being shot dead by the politicos and their armies.

The problem for the people that remained is easy enough to understand and to accept. They were given no real choice. Change your name or suffer the consequences. The choice was really change your name or die! One can almost hear the old folk speaking among themselves: "What if we change our names, change the sound a little, change one or two letters on a piece of paper? What does it matter if they will only let us live? There is nothing to it! What's in a name? It is food we need in our bellies, food in our children's bellies, food for our cattle and animals. It doesn't matter what name you call it, serve up the, "Chorba"! We can at least get our tongues around that, get some food into our bellies so that our families can live. We'll manage somehow to get our tongues around the new language, the new names later. SURVIVE FIRST!"

I doubt if any one of them ever forgot their real historic family names. How could they? The reality was that the Greeks had captured the land, the people, the stage on which life is played. The children were taught to play in Greek, to speak in Greek, to read in Greek. Like in classic Greek theatre, a mask had to be worn.

And the Greek government could say, "See they have Greek Masks, they speak Greek, there are no Macedonians here". Sadly, oh so sadly, the Greek Orthodox Church also played a role like an attendant lord, sacrificing and serving up one of the oldest Christian people to political masters.

The Drama Continues

If you have not already met with him, allow me to introduce a real life historic character on to the stage. George Zorba. He is the real person on whom the novel and movie, "Zorba The Greek" is based. This is where the soup thickens, and the plot unfurls.

He was born in 1865, in a Macedonian village (now called Kolindros) about 25 miles from Salonika. Curiously, Dedo Naumche was born a few years later only about 80 miles to the northwest as the stork flies from where Zorba was born. That whole area was under the occupation of the Turks until 1912. Life for poor Macedonian peasants was probably not too much different from one small village to the next. Clearly Zorba was not born a Greek citizen. And from his name it is fairly certain that he was not a Turk. What was he?

In a fascinating article, "Searching for the Real Zorba" written by Alan Linn and published in the Canadian MD magazine, the author doesn't ask or answer the question of Zorba's ethnic identity. The article gives an historic account of the real Zorba; how Zorba's father quarrelled with a Turk and fled his village, travelled south into Greece taking his family with him where George Zorba grew up; how his mother died when he was 19 years old; how his father retired to a monastery at Mt. Athos; and how Zorba, penniless, began to make his way back to his father's village. From these facts it looks as though he wanted to go back to where he was born, where his roots were, where he must have felt he belonged, and where perhaps some relatives still survived.

We are told that he worked as a herdsman, tending sheep and goats, as a woodcutter, as a digger in a mine, as a pedlar, a blacksmith, a labourer, a smuggler, beggar and musician. He was a talented survivor by all accounts.

In 1912 he "joined the fighting". But from the article we do not learn who he was fighting with, against whom, or where. One biographer apparently describes him as burning and pillaging "Bulgarian Villages." Where? Where were these "Bulgarian Villages"? In Bulgaria? This was a war against the Turks wasn't it? What was going on?

If we look to the novel we learn that Zorba fought in the mountains of Macedonia with Pavlos Melas, a Greek Officer, who distinguished himself in the war against the Bulgarian 'Comitadjic' or guerilla fighters. In the novel Zorba describes how he cut the throat of a priest, a Bulgarian comitadji. From this information taken by itself one might prematurely conclude that Zorba had become politically Greek. But follow, the story further to see what Zorba does. A few days later, Zorba says he encountered five little children dressed in black, barefoot, begging, three girls and two boys, the oldest ten years old and the youngest still a baby. On learning that it was the children's father that he had killed, he says tears came to his eyes, and "the earth spun like a millstone." He took his purse and gave the children all the Turkish money and gold he had and all his supplies, and then he tore up the Saint Sophia medal he had embroidered with the hairs of his own head and threw it away and ran. He says he rescued himself from the ideas of country, the Church, and money, all at once. He said "he used to" think of men as Greeks, or Bulgars or Turks and burned villages, cut throats, robbed and raped women, but he calls himself "a swine" for having done so. He says to himself, "To hell with you right away, you ass." He denounces and gives up all ideas of country, of nationalism and says, "...But I am delivered from all that. God be praised! it's finished for me!" As indeed, in his day, was Macedonia finished.

Zorba was ashamed and hated himself for the part he had taken in the war, and the killings. One wonders, had the real George Zorba become a pacifist? Had he reverted to becoming a peasant without a country and hating the very idea of country because of what had happened to him? Had he become apolitical as well?

From that part of the book what seems to remain is a deep sorrow and compassion for his fellow man regardless of their nationality.

Let us return here to the historic facts of George Zorba's life. After fighting against the Turks in the war of 1912, he retreated to the monastery at Mt. Athos like his father before him but he could not stand the place. Shortly thereafter he met the author-poet Nikos Kazantzakis and together they planned their adventure to develop a mine. This project was quite simply a hoax, a sham to avoid conscription into the Greek army in the war of 1914-1918 as apparently mineworkers were exempted from military service. The mine had a timely collapse in 1918 when the war ended.

Apparently George Zorba and Kazantzakis next met on a trip to Russia that Kazantzakis had organized to "rescue Greeks fleeing Bolshevism". That too sounds very strange. The two men stayed in a hotel housing refugee dancing girls and Zorba returned back to Greece with three beautiful Russian women. None of that sounds as if he rescued political dissenters or heavyweights.

George Zorba drifted north into what is now Yugoslavia and settled in a village a few miles from Skopje. For almost the last twenty years of his life the historic George Zorba lived in the centre of the Macedonian countryside until he died at about the age of 77 in 1942.

A magnificent soup can move the taste buds in all kinds of directions and an open mind can move around just as easily. Why, as a middle-aged man in his late 50's, would Zorba move north into the Macedonian heartland? If he were Greek, why wouldn't he have moved south and lived anywhere in Greece? Having deserted the Greek cause in 1912 in the war against the Turks, was he afraid for his life? Was he choosing to spend his last years among a strange people and culture, or was he going to live with the people he knew, with the people with whom he felt closest? Would he speak Greek in a Macedonian village, or would he speak Macedonian? Was he a Greek among Macedonians, or was he... a MACEDONIAN?

Changing the Name of the Novel

The book was written by Kazantzakis and published in Greek in 1946 during the civil war between Macedonians and Greeks. The original title was "The Life and Times of Alexe Zormpa". Zormpa? How peculiar? But you did notice that the book originally was not called "Zorba The Greek".

When the book was first translated into English in 1952 the title of the book was changed to "Zorba The Greek." Why? And it was under the new name that the movie was made in 1964 that further helped to make the character of Zorba world famous. It is because of the new English title of the book and the movie that the whole world has been led astray as to the real ethnic and national identity of the legendary character. The world has come to think of Zorba as Greek, but is he?

A Close Reading of the Novel: Great Truths Revealed

There is no better evidence as to the ethnic and national identity of Zorba than the text of Kazantzakis' book itself.

When the main character in the book first meets Kazantzakis, but before he reveals his name he offers to work for the author as a cook. He says, "I can make soups you've never heard of, or thought of." That is Kazantzakis dropping the first clue about the name, Zorba as Chorba in Macedonian.

When asked his name the character replies as , follows: "Alexis Zorba. Sometimes they call me Baker's Shovel because I'm so lanky and my head is flattened like a griddlecake. Or else I'm called Passa Tempo because there was a time when I hawked roast pumpkin seeds. They call me Mildew too, because wherever I go, they say I get up to my tricks. Everything goes to the dogs. I have other nicknames as well, but we'll leave them for another time..."

Look now! As soon as we meet Zorba we find out he had many names! What is truly fascinating is how the nicknames he gives show a progression of decay, from a name associated with baking fresh bread, then the passing of time, and then mildew when bread turns bad and can't be eaten. What kind of tricks is Kazantzakis talking about? Is it tricks with names? Is that a clue from Kazantzakis to look out for word tricks?

Kazantzakis provides a further clue in the book when he writes further on, "Everything in this world has a hidden meaning ... men, animals, trees, stars ... (and notice that last one) ... it is only years later, too late, that you understand." Kazantzakis tells us that there are hidden meanings and to look further.

Let's look closer. The author has Zorba describe Macedonia. Now notice that in another separate paragraph he has Zorba speak about Greece, Bulgaria and Constantinople. Why does he place these in separate paragraphs you might wonder? Kazantzakis was a master writer, a master craftsman, and perhaps the greatest writer that Greece has produced in this century. It is not simply chance that he makes that separation.

Then there is the greatest revelation about Zorba. In the book, Zorba, talking about himself says,

"O wonderful Slav, may you live a thousand years!"

Are Greeks Slavs? Do they ever speak of themselves as being Slavs? Macedonians are Slavs, in an ethnic sense and a religious sense.

In the novel, Zorba sings Macedonian songs, a synthesis of "poetry, music and thought" as Kazantzakis describes them. Do you remember Zorba singing Macedonian songs in the movie? No, neither do I. Kazantzakis spoke Greek. He knew the difference between a Greek song and a Macedonian song. He did not use the name Macedonian to mean Greek. Kazantzakis was nobody's fool.

The author even asks Zorba to sing a song, "A Macedonian Song of your own country, Zorba". Oh mark Kazantzakis words well!

To mark the difference clearly, at another point Kazantzakis writes, "And don't forget, Zorba is a foreigner, a Macedonian, and it is the greatest disgrace we Cretans can bring on ourselves to raise a hand against a guest in our country...

Perhaps the saddest and most telling evidence of all about the distortions to Zorba's name is a letter Zorba writes from Romania that he signs, "Alexis Zorbescu". Later he also sends Kazantzakis a card, a postcard, from Serbia that is signed, "Alexis Zorbic". The last time Kazantzakis hears about his friend is a letter that he received from a schoolmaster in Skopje telling him of the death of Alexis Zorba.


Kazantzakis Respect for Zorba

For Kazantzakis, Zorba was a hero, and he placed him along side of Homer, Nietzche and Bergson whom he called "the bodyguards of the Odyssey", men who protect and develop man's freedom to think in the progression of human history. He elevated Zorba to the very pinnacle of human evolution, human achievement.

Kazantzakis believed that what Zorba was offering in his understanding and philosophy of living was a new Decalogue, nothing less than a new set of Ten Commandments for man in this world. He placed Zorba, in the illustrious company with Christ, Dante, Buddha, El Greco and others. It is astonishing, but here we have Kazantzakis, one of the great intellectuals of our age, a one-time Education Minister in the Greek Government, a writer who almost won the Nobel Prize for Literature, placing an ordinary Macedonian among the world's greatest philosophers, poets, painters, and spiritual leaders. Amazing!

That is a kind of respect that Macedonians seldom receive openly and publicly. It is also the kind of respect we must learn to give towards ourselves and our history.

Kazantzakis knew our history. In the preface to the English translation of his 'Alexander the Great', the translator, Theodora Vasilis, writes, "Zorba, the most popular of his (Kazantzakis') creations was fashioned in the image of the crafty Odysseus." If Odysseus was crafty and cunning we must open both of our eyes! Why did Kazantzakis reject the name 'George' and choose the name 'Alexis'? Was it because he simply liked the sound of the name and pulled it out of a hat? Or was Kazantzakis the writer acting as a 'koom', as a godfather and deliberately chose the name 'Alexis'? Did he do this so that the name would ring a bell of remembrance in our minds, a name associated with somebody? Who? What name? Very likely to remind us of Alexander the Great, the Macedonian who struggled to bring the whole world together, east and west.

Notice how both names have three words, the same balance, the same form: Alexander the Great - Zorba the Greek. If we search for the meaning of names we find Alexis means 'to ward off, keep off, protect'. Was the book about Zorba meant to be more than just a novel but a way of speaking to the world about the Macedonian Spirit?

Consider the initials of Kazantzakis' hero, 'A.Z.' - like the beginning and the end of the alphabet that Kazantzakis loved so much. And there too is the mysterious biblical "alpha and omega".

Was Kazantzakis hiding the true identity of his hero and sending forth a hidden message to the world in his hero's name! Was he doing what Zorba himself had done, changing a letter here and there as he did Romania and Serbia.

It was in 1952, three years after the civil war between the Greeks and Macedonians ended, that the book was translated into English with the new title, "Zorba The Greek". Kazantzakis was still alive and surely he knew of the translation. Surely he approved of the name and title to the book, and the question that arises is why did he do it? Why, if Kazantzakis was clearly giving the message throughout his book that Zorba was a Macedonian, with his own country, a Slav who should live for a thousand years, a man whom he admits he loved dearly in his life and for whom he had such respect and regard -- why would he allow the translation into English to be "Zorba The Greek"? What a puzzle?

Kazantzakis the Classic Scholar

Kazantzakis knew well enough that English is one of the great international world languages. No doubt he wanted his ideas and philosophy and those of Zorba to spread around the world. He even refers to Zorba as the new Sinbad the Sailor and he clearly must have had a world audience in mind.

One moment then! Was adding the words "The Greek" some kind of a sham, a trick, a disguise? Was this a hoax, just like their "mining operation" during the war? In the book itself in a dozen different ways he invites the reader to dig, dig, dig for the truth about his much-beloved character.

Was the new English title and translation of his book meant to be a mask for Zorba/ Chorba? Was "Zorba" intended to go around the world, disguised as "The Greek", fashioned and crafted to become world famous, and irony of ironies, in the end to reveal himself and to confront and confound the Greek politicians for their conduct towards all Macedonians. Is that what he was letting us know right at the beginning of the book when he was talking about names and wrote, "I get up to my tricks, Everything goes to the dogs?"

Observe the classic tradition in story, poetry, songs. In the classic epic songs of Homer, and in the epic songs in the Slavic oral tradition a hero frequently travels in disguise for the real purpose of making a rescue. When there is a disguise there must eventually be a recognition when the disguise is stripped away. In these recognition scenes, almost like a signal there would always be present at the moment of recognition a song or a musical instrument.

What Do We Find in the Novel?

True to classic tradition, when Zorba reveals himself as a Slav, a Macedonian, he sings and plays the santuri.

Who can doubt that Kazantzakis, whose greatest work was The Odyssey, A Modern Sequel, knew of these themes, these traditions of disguise and rescue.

Open Letter to Kazantzakis

"Nikos! Kazantzakis! I cry out to you in the beyond! I may be wrong about what you have written, what you intended, but I may be right? Throughout your work you called on the human spirit to dare, to look behind the masks of everything as you had spent your life doing. It is still worth doing Nikos!"

"I do not think that you meant to cast any insult on the memory of your friend who was dead by misrepresenting him around the world. I do think that you may have been trying to provide him with a kind of peasant's revenge after his death. Did you not, by writing, preserve and rescue for the world that Macedonian whom you had come to know and admire and respect. You rescued him from an almost total oblivion and through your spirit transformed the man into the undying literature of Freedom."

"Da ti ye arliya, Nikos"

"Nikos, is it time now to take away the disguise of "The Greek", from your friend George Zorba? What a wonderfully crafted mask Nikos, worthy of Odysseus himself. What a comic mask! And beneath that what, the mask of tragedy, the tragedy of Macedonians in Greece?"

"But you wouldn't want to leave us with another mask, one of comedy and one of tragedy would you? Where would the rescue and the resurrection be? Didn't you intend that Zorba should hold up and represent, not only the national ethnic identity of man, but much, much, more than that, the classic universal human craving for the ideal of freedom for the body of man."

"And didn't you Nikos want the world to know that you and Zorba were the best of friends on a personal level, on a human level, Macedonian and Greek. Weren't you describing a universal human brotherhood of work and struggle together for a kind of freedom for everyone with a decent respect for each other. And wasn't it above all petty politics? Wasn't it a message for politicians too? And wasn't one of the great messages that you wanted any reader to take from your story, your book, "Peace ... for the sake of the children?"

Nikos Kazantzakis died in Frieburg, Germany, on October 26th, 1957. His body was taken to Athens to lie in state. The Archbishop of Athens of the Greek Orthodox Church refused to permit the national honour or to celebrate a funeral mass for him. Kazantzakis name and the name of his hero Zorba/Chorba live on around the world and will to the end of time. I don't remember the name of the Archbishop.

Conclusion

"Zorba the Greek" has been a great international commercial success and a lot of people have been able to cat steak because of it. But steak is a passing thing, and TRUTH STICKS.

The evidence from George Zorba's life and from the novel clearly points to the conclusion that Zorba the Greek is in truth, Chorba the Macedonian.

Kazantzakis, a one-time Minister of Education in the government of Greece, and perhaps the greatest Greek writer of this century, hails and affirms a Macedonian and places him among the world's leaders.

By creating a mask, by writing an excellent novel, by contributing to the great literature of the world, Kazantzakis hid a great Macedonian, to protect and preserve him.

He saved, not the man Zorba/ Chorba, but even more important, the memory, the image, the philosophy, the life-view and the world-view of the Macedonian mind alive in the world.

The marvelous achievement of Kazantzakis is that he created an indelible universal statement of Freedom and Human Rights with the essential message of "Long Live the Macedonians".

And, Kazantzakis did that by beginning with one word SOUP. CHORBA!
asteriades
2005-01-18 14:01:55 UTC
Permalink
Like it, like it... Your desperation speaks volumes.
gogu
2005-01-18 22:49:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by asteriades
Like it, like it... Your desperation speaks volumes.
Sure, even Zorba was a Skopian ;-))))
LOL
Then why his daughter (or granddaughter, I don't recall exactly) gave an
interview to the Greek TV a couple a years ago
and she clearly said (in plain Greek) that her grandfather, herself and all
her family are GREEK ?!!!
Well, I suppose that such "minor" details/questions do not bother the
propagandist
Skopians ;-)
Like good commies they are, they are chewing their propaganda even if Zorbas
family says otherwise !
But what do those persons know, Skopian apparatchiks know better ;-)))

Pathetic, pathetic...
--
E' mai possibile, oh porco di un cane, che le avventure
in codesto reame debban risolversi tutte con grandi
puttane! F.d.A

http://gogu.enosi.org/index.html
http://www.romclub.4t.com/rabin.html
++
2005-01-20 07:31:45 UTC
Permalink
Gogu,
They had no shame in calling Alexander the Great one of their own, a
Skopian, why should they not call Zorba a Skopian.
They even appropriated to themselves the memory of late Mother Teresa,
Mother Theresa was , by her father, a Vlach, by her mother an Albanian,
born in Macedonia
although she was Albanian.
Panayiotis
Ilinden
2005-01-20 17:42:32 UTC
Permalink
Mother Teresa was by her mother Egyptian by her father a Vlach born in
Macedonia .
Post by ++
Gogu,
They had no shame in calling Alexander the Great one of their own, a
Skopian, why should they not call Zorba a Skopian.
They even appropriated to themselves the memory of late Mother Teresa,
Mother Theresa was , by her father, a Vlach, by her mother an
Albanian, born in Macedonia
although she was Albanian.
Panayiotis
++
2005-01-24 10:00:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ilinden
Mother Teresa was by her mother Egyptian by her father a Vlach born in
Macedonia .
What is your source she was Egiptani?
Post by Ilinden
Post by ++
Gogu,
They had no shame in calling Alexander the Great one of their own, a
Skopian, why should they not call Zorba a Skopian.
They even appropriated to themselves the memory of late Mother Teresa,
Mother Theresa was , by her father, a Vlach, by her mother an
Albanian, born in Macedonia
although she was Albanian.
Panayiotis
Ilinden
2005-01-24 13:55:03 UTC
Permalink
Galina, according to the professor Miodrag Hadziristick, ask that
question at this E-mail and you will get the answer, about the parents
of mother Teresa. ***@sonet.mk
Regards, Ilinden the Macedonian
Post by ++
Post by Ilinden
Mother Teresa was by her mother Egyptian by her father a Vlach born
in Macedonia .
What is your source she was Egiptani?
Post by Ilinden
Post by ++
Gogu,
They had no shame in calling Alexander the Great one of their own, a
Skopian, why should they not call Zorba a Skopian.
They even appropriated to themselves the memory of late Mother Teresa,
Mother Theresa was , by her father, a Vlach, by her mother an
Albanian, born in Macedonia
although she was Albanian.
Panayiotis
June R Harton
2005-02-04 03:43:15 UTC
Permalink
"Ilinden" <***@sympatico.ca> wrote in message news:937Jd.19$***@news20.bellglobal.com...

Stupidity from you and Schneider again, Bulgar.

Bulgar, you were born a Bulgar and you have no choice, you will also
will die as one.

And, Bulgar, what did I tell you and Schneider about hiding from truth?

In a letter to Prof. Marin Drinov of May 25, 1888 Kuzman Shapkarev writes:
"But even stranger is the name Macedonians, which was imposed on us only 10
to 15 years ago by outsiders, and not as something by our own
intellectuals... Yet the people in Macedonia know nothing of that ancient
name, reintroduced today with a cunning aim on the one hand and a stupid one
on the other. They know the older word: "Bugari", although mispronounced:
they have even adopted it as peculiarly theirs, inapplicable to other
Bulgarians. You can find more about this in the introduction to the booklets
I am sending you. They call their own Macedono-Bulgarian dialect the
"Bugarski language", while the rest of the Bulgarian dialects they refer to
as the "Shopski language". (Makedonski pregled, IX, 2, 1934, p. 55; the
original letter is kept in the Marin Drinov Museum in Sofia, and it is
available for examination and study)
Here is the text in the original:

"No pochudno e imeto Makedonci, koeto naskoro, edvay predi 10-15 godini, ni
natrapiha i to otvqn, a ne kakto nyakoi mislyat ot samata nasha
inteligenciya... Narodqt obache v Makedoniya ne znae nishto za tova
arhaichesko, a dnes, s lukava cel ot edna strana, s glupeshka ot druga,
podnoveno prozvishte; toy si znae postaroto: Bugari, makar i nepravilno
proiznasyano, daje osvoyava si go kato sobstveno i preimushtestveno svoe,
nejeli za drugite Bqlgari. Za tova shte vidite i v predgovora na izpratenite
mi knijici. Toy naricha Bugarski ezik svoeto Makaedono-bqlgarsko narechie,
kogato drugite bqlgarski narechiya naricha Shopski."


And here:


Reference source for Gotse Delchev's numerous utterings of 'We are
Bulgarians'......

http://www.ucc.ie/staff/jprodr/macedonia/macmodnat2.html

Even Gotse Delchev, the famous Macedonian revolutionary leader, whose nom de
guerre was Ahil (Achilles), refers to "the Slavs of Macedonia as
'Bulgarians' in an offhanded manner without seeming to indicate that such a
designation was a point of contention" (Perry 1988:23).
In his correspondence Gotse Delchev often states clearly and simply, "We are
Bulgarians" (MacDermott 1978:192,273).


And here:


For fair use only.

http://members.tripod.com/~dimobetchev/documents/ilinden.htm

" Considering the critical and terrible situation that the Bulgarian
population of the Bitola Vilayet found itself in and following the ravages
and cruelties done by the Turkish troops and irregulars, ... considering
the fact that everything Bulgarian runs the risk of perishing and
disappearing without a trace because of violence, hunger, and the upcoming
misery, the Head Quarters finds it to be its obligation to draw the
attention of the respected Bulgarian government to the pernicious
consequences vis-a-vis the Bulgarian nation, in case the latter does not
fulfill its duty towards its brethren of race here in an imposing fashion
which is necessary by virtue of the present ordeal for the common Bulgarian
Fatherland...

...Being in command of our people's movement, we appeal to you on behalf of
the enslaved Bulgarian to help him in the most effective way - by waging
war.We believe that the response of the people in free Bulgaria will be the
same.

... No bulgarian school is opened, neither will it be opened... Nobody
thinks of education when he is outlawed by the state because he bears the
name Bulgar...


Waiting for your patriotic intervention, we are pleased to inform you that
we have in our disposition the armed forces we have spared by now.

The Head Quarters of the Ilinden Uprising"

Damian GRUEV, Boris SARAFOV, Atanas LOZANTCHEV

This memorandum was handed to Dr.Kozhuharov, the Bulgarian consul in Bitola,

and transmitted by him to the government in Sofia with report N441 from
September 17th, 1903. "

And here:


http://www.bulgaria.com/VMRO/document.htm

http://www.bulgaria.com/VMRO/documen1.htm

http://www.bulgaria.com/VMRO/documen2.htm

http://www.bulgaria.com/VMRO/documen3.htm

http://www.bulgaria.com/VMRO/drzhava.htm

http://www.bulgaria.com/VMRO/exarchy.htm

http://w3.tyenet.com/kozlich/mapovska4a.htm

And finally here

http://www.bulgaria.com/VMRO/bitola06.htm

http://www.historymuseum.org/items.php3?nid=199&name=ochrid



from: Spirit of Truth

(using June's e-mail to communicate to you)!
Costica Gogule KOKU !
2005-02-04 14:21:11 UTC
Permalink
Hey Ms Hardon !

I note that you've been dissing Macedonia for years now........

Guess what ?

YOU LOST !

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/mk.html

*ROTFFLMFAOAY*

"The Republic of Macedonia" is recognised by over 100 nations, LOSER !

Mewhahahaahahahahahahahaharr

Will you ever get over it, I wonder ?

PWNage !
Seanie PWNs Tsolakis
2005-01-20 12:11:06 UTC
Permalink
Gogu golanule KOKU has no shame in pretending that *HE*, a Romanian
labourer by the name of Konstantin Ghica Brincoveanu is really a Grik !

You *TRUE* griks seem honoured by the fact that a lowly Romaneshti
guest worker wants to pretend he's a grik !
That says it all !

Mwahhaaaahahahahahaharharharharharharhar
Dorian West
2005-01-20 14:35:35 UTC
Permalink
Please accept this small token I offer as a humble gesture of my esteem for
the Macedonian people - the "Prophylaxis of Greece" for over 3 millennia.

Can any nice person out there Turkish included help the Serbo-Turks of
Vardaksa Banovina answer this question?

Why is it when I ask this 1 question let alone scores more, you Slavs hide
like a demon horde from hell was chasing you? Humour me and make up
something even! I used the magic word. I said, "please". It's pathetic
destroying your world view with, as my great TV hero, Mr. Spock would say,
"pure logic". That reminds me of my other TV hero, William Shatner who wrote
in his biography he played Captain Kirk, "like the greatest Greek hero,
Alexander the Great". I do digress however.

Here, I'll help you answer the question that ails you so. We renamed it
because we were finally free from Serbian control. We renamed it because the
Bulgarians and Germans on the Axis side were occupying Greece. We renamed it
because lost sources were uncovered that proved once and for all 2 key
points that 1. Macedonians were not Greeks and 2. we, the Slavs are
Macedonians. The sources were subsequently lost again. We didn't kill
200,000 Greeks, only 160,000 (I do say almost 200,000).

Why not answer question 1 of mine below? Oops, silly me, I have answered it
for you. Hehehehe!!!

1. Why did the Yugoslavs rename their province Vardaska, adjoining the Greek
province of Macedonia, to Makedonija (Macedonia in English) on 2nd August
1944? In addition, why did they consider it necessary to kill almost 200,000
Greeks in their failed 1944-49 effort of conquering Greece and especially
the beloved Greek province of Macedonia - the Heart of Greece?

ANSWER TO GET YOU STARTED: "I shall not indulge in a lecture on the ancient
identity of the Macedonians and on Philip II of Macedon and Alexander the
Great, but the Greeks were historically correct in the campaign that they
launched in the early days of the dispute... "Nor shall I engage in a
lecture on the falsification of the history of Slavo-Macedonia since 1944,
although that, too, as much hard factual content. I simply remind the House
that Tito's renaming of Vardar Banovina as the Republic of Macedonia in 1944
was a political statement. More than that, it was a territorial claim. It
laid claim to territory in Greece and in Bulgaria. Notably, the objective
was the warm water port of Salonika on the Aegean."

[Mr. Edward O'Hara of the British Parliament]
Costica Gogule KOKU !
2005-02-04 14:20:34 UTC
Permalink
Hey Doreen green-faced West http://www.sci-sonic.com
I note that you've been *dissing* Macedonia for years now........

AND Guess what ?

YOU LOST ! mwaaaaahahahahahahahahahrharhar

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/mk.html

*ROTFFLMFAOAY*

"The Republic of Macedonia" is recognised by over 100 nations, LOSER !

Mewhahahaahahahahahahahaharr

Will you ever get over it, I wonder ?

PWNage !

I DOUBT IT !
premium
2005-01-20 18:05:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Seanie PWNs Tsolakis
Gogu golanule KOKU has no shame in pretending that *HE*, a Romanian
labourer by the name of Konstantin Ghica Brincoveanu is really a Grik !
You *TRUE* griks seem honoured by the fact that a lowly Romaneshti
guest worker wants to pretend he's a grik !
That says it all !
Mwahhaaaahahahahahaharharharharharharhar
Hear that brazen, unemployed Turk talking who's on the dole, living off the
Brits' money and posting 24/7/12!

Mwahhaaaahahahahahaharharharharharharhar
--
If stupidity had financial value you'd be stinking rich, Seanie.
TCYP
2005-01-20 20:26:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by premium
Post by Seanie PWNs Tsolakis
Gogu golanule KOKU has no shame in pretending that *HE*, a Romanian
labourer by the name of Konstantin Ghica Brincoveanu is really a Grik !
You *TRUE* griks seem honoured by the fact that a lowly Romaneshti
guest worker wants to pretend he's a grik !
That says it all !
Mwahhaaaahahahahahaharharharharharharhar
Hear that brazen, unemployed Turk talking who's on the dole, living off the
Brits' money and posting 24/7/12!
hahahahahaha...that's a bit rich coming from an jobless yob like you, innit?


--
Please visit http://www.atcanews.org and show your support for the Turkish
Cypriots cause for freedom and soon to be recognised TRNC(KKTC). Thanks
premium
2005-01-20 21:26:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by TCYP
Post by premium
Post by Seanie PWNs Tsolakis
Gogu golanule KOKU has no shame in pretending that *HE*, a Romanian
labourer by the name of Konstantin Ghica Brincoveanu is really a Grik !
You *TRUE* griks seem honoured by the fact that a lowly Romaneshti
guest worker wants to pretend he's a grik !
That says it all !
Mwahhaaaahahahahahaharharharharharharhar
Hear that brazen, unemployed Turk talking who's on the dole, living off
the
Post by premium
Brits' money and posting 24/7/12!
hahahahahaha...that's a bit rich coming from an jobless yob like you, innit?
Haha... I don't belong to your sort of losers. And even if I did there
would be this big difference: I still would be no Turk, which makes me a
winner compared to you, anyway you look at it. <BG>
--
He is an idiot and proud of it: the Turkish Retard of Northern Cyprus
TCYP
2005-01-20 20:25:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Seanie PWNs Tsolakis
Gogu golanule KOKU has no shame in pretending that *HE*, a Romanian
labourer by the name of Konstantin Ghica Brincoveanu is really a Grik !
You *TRUE* griks seem honoured by the fact that a lowly Romaneshti
guest worker wants to pretend he's a grik !
That says it all !
Mwahhaaaahahahahahaharharharharharharhar
That is what happened to Abdullah Canan, a wealthy businessman
from a village near Yuksekova, according to the lawmakers'
report.
Canan had filed suit against members of the security forces
who had destroyed several homes in his village after the men
there refused to become village guards, according to the report
and accounts given by his relatives.
According to the lawmakers' report, Canan was warned by Maj.
Yurdakul to drop his complaint against the security forces. When
Canan failed to do so, he disappeared. His mutilated body was
found a month later.
"What bothers me most was the signs of torture on his body,"
Canan's son, Vahap, said recently in Yuksekova.
"They had carved pieces off his face and ears. Bits of his
fingers were burned away by electric shocks. They had slit his
throat and stuck his identity card inside," he said. "A very
professional job.
The lawmakers' report accuses the Yuksekova "gang in uniform"
of Canan's death and calls for the National Assembly to
investigate similar extrajudicial killings in the southeast, of
which there have been hundreds, according to rights groups.
Seanie PWNs Tsolakis
2005-01-20 12:07:20 UTC
Permalink
Your name speaks volumes Mr Theodore Mavroidis

How's shitty old Uxbridge-Pradesh today Hmmbwoy ?

Bit noisy is it ? that's why the ex-council hovel you bought was so
cheap !

http://snipurl.com/c5nn

*LMFAOAY*
Dorian West
2005-01-20 14:35:48 UTC
Permalink
Please accept this small token I offer as a humble gesture of my esteem for
the Macedonian people - the "Prophylaxis of Greece" for over 3 millennia.

Can any nice person out there Turkish included help the Serbo-Turks of
Vardaksa Banovina answer this question?

Why is it when I ask this 1 question let alone scores more, you Slavs hide
like a demon horde from hell was chasing you? Humour me and make up
something even! I used the magic word. I said, "please". It's pathetic
destroying your world view with, as my great TV hero, Mr. Spock would say,
"pure logic". That reminds me of my other TV hero, William Shatner who wrote
in his biography he played Captain Kirk, "like the greatest Greek hero,
Alexander the Great". I do digress however.

Here, I'll help you answer the question that ails you so. We renamed it
because we were finally free from Serbian control. We renamed it because the
Bulgarians and Germans on the Axis side were occupying Greece. We renamed it
because lost sources were uncovered that proved once and for all 2 key
points that 1. Macedonians were not Greeks and 2. we, the Slavs are
Macedonians. The sources were subsequently lost again. We didn't kill
200,000 Greeks, only 160,000 (I do say almost 200,000).

Why not answer question 1 of mine below? Oops, silly me, I have answered it
for you. Hehehehe!!!

1. Why did the Yugoslavs rename their province Vardaska, adjoining the Greek
province of Macedonia, to Makedonija (Macedonia in English) on 2nd August
1944? In addition, why did they consider it necessary to kill almost 200,000
Greeks in their failed 1944-49 effort of conquering Greece and especially
the beloved Greek province of Macedonia - the Heart of Greece?

ANSWER TO GET YOU STARTED: "I shall not indulge in a lecture on the ancient
identity of the Macedonians and on Philip II of Macedon and Alexander the
Great, but the Greeks were historically correct in the campaign that they
launched in the early days of the dispute... "Nor shall I engage in a
lecture on the falsification of the history of Slavo-Macedonia since 1944,
although that, too, as much hard factual content. I simply remind the House
that Tito's renaming of Vardar Banovina as the Republic of Macedonia in 1944
was a political statement. More than that, it was a territorial claim. It
laid claim to territory in Greece and in Bulgaria. Notably, the objective
was the warm water port of Salonika on the Aegean."

[Mr. Edward O'Hara of the British Parliament]
Panayiotis
2005-01-18 15:08:25 UTC
Permalink
======================================
"And Macedonia, of course, is a part of Greece."
(Strabo VII, Frg. 9 [Loeb, H.L. Jones])
======================================
Zhivko,
Did not have the time to read all of it. Maybe I'll come back another time. For the time being my comment is that in this "self explanatory article", there is at least one "scientific" and historical lie.

The author says:
"The book was written by Kazantzakis and published in Greek in 1946 during the civil war between Macedonians and Greeks".

1. What is the definition of civil war. Greeks against Greeks, for example. You admit (at least the author of this article does, and indirectly you, too!) that Macedonians are Greeks. Thank you! Otherwise we cannot call it a civil war.
2. Yes, we did have a civil war (1946-1949), but it was all over Greece. Greeks killing Greeks in Athens, Peloponnisos, Crete, Thessaly, Ipiros, Thrace and of course Macedonia.
3. Stop trying to feed us with lies. We cannot digest them.

Panayiotis
"Zhivko Apostolovski" <***@bigpond.net.au> wrote in message news:IY5Hd.123201$***@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
A bit lenghty, but a self explanatory article.

Zorba the Greek Unmasked: Chorba the Macedonian

by Dr. Alex K. Gigeroff, Ph.D.
Zhivko Apostolovski
2005-01-18 20:39:47 UTC
Permalink
"Panayiotis" <***@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:csj8nr$8sb$***@nic.grnet.gr...
======================================
"And Macedonia, of course, is a part of Greece."
(Strabo VII, Frg. 9 [Loeb, H.L. Jones])
======================================
Zhivko,
Did not have the time to read all of it. Maybe I'll come back another time. For the time being my comment is that in this "self explanatory article", there is at least one "scientific" and historical lie.

The author says:
"The book was written by Kazantzakis and published in Greek in 1946 during the civil war between Macedonians and Greeks".

1. What is the definition of civil war. Greeks against Greeks, for example. You admit (at least the author of this article does, and indirectly you, too!) that Macedonians are Greeks. Thank you! Otherwise we cannot call it a civil war.

Point taken. I did notice the "inaccuracy"(defficiency), as well and I was certain the greek side would pick upon this triviality, as the story is not about this event, but about "Zorba" the non Greek.

2. Yes, we did have a civil war (1946-1949), but it was all over Greece. Greeks killing Greeks in Athens, Peloponnisos, Crete, Thessaly, Ipiros, Thrace and of course Macedonia.

3. Stop trying to feed us with lies. We cannot digest them.

Again, the subject is not about the "civil" war. But the major battles were in Macedonia, for the the control of Macedonia. The major atrocities, whether you wish to take this on board or not, were carried out against the Macedonians. If the truth is a lie to you and you find it hard to stomach, so be it.

Panayiotis
"Zhivko Apostolovski" <***@bigpond.net.au> wrote in message news:IY5Hd.123201$***@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
A bit lenghty, but a self explanatory article.

Zorba the Greek Unmasked: Chorba the Macedonian

by Dr. Alex K. Gigeroff, Ph.D.
June R Harton
2005-01-19 05:31:42 UTC
Permalink
"Zhivko Apostolovski" <***@bigpond.net.au> wrote in message news:nueHd.123518$***@news-server.bigpond.net.au...

You post such easily exposed lies, Bulgar!

No Macedonia was occupied or divided:

European Turkey! Look:

Article 23 of the Berlin Treaty, 1878,
"The Sublime Porte is obliged to carefully implement the Organic Statute in
the island of Crete, introducing changes which would be assessed as
justified.
Analogous statutes adapted to local requirements, with the exception of the
tax exemption approved to Crete, will be equally introduced in the other
parts of European Turkey as well, which are not subject of particular
drawing up in this Treaty. The Sublime Porte is to engage special
commissions, composed to a great extent of local members, which
are to work out the details of the new statutes for each province.
The organization projects to be worked out by the commissions
will be submitted for examination to the Sublime Porte, which in
turn, before passing any of the acts, will request the opinion of the
European commission established for Eastern Rumelia."


And Rumelia from:
http://www.britannica.com/bcom/eb/article/1/0,5716,66071+1,00.html
For fair use only


ENCYCLOPÆDIA BRITANNICA

Rumelia

Turkish RUMELI, the former Ottoman possessions in the Balkans. The name
means "land of the Romans"--i.e., Byzantines. The Turks first began to make
conquests in the Balkans in the mid-14th century. The land was divided into
fiefs of various size that were administered by cavalry officers; local
notables who converted to Islam also shared in the administration. The
administrative configuration of Rumelia changed frequently until 1864, when
the unit of administrative division became defined as the province, or
vilayet, which was in turn divided into sancak (subprovinces). The Danube
vilayet was formed first, in 1864, followed by those of Janina (Ioannina)
and Salonika (Thessaloníki, in Greece) in 1867. Under the Treaty of Berlin
(1878), the Danube vilayet formed the independent state of Bulgaria under
Ottoman suzerainty; southern Bulgaria formed the autonomous province of
Eastern Rumelia with its capital at Philippopoli (Plovdiv); and western
Rumelia was divided into the Edirne, Salonika, and Monastir ils (provinces).
In 1885 Bulgaria annexed Eastern Rumelia, and by the Treaty of Bucharest
(1913), Monastir was ceded to Serbia and Salonika to Greece; only Edirne
remained under Ottoman rule.
In the 15th and 16th centuries Rumelia functioned as a reservoir of the
devsirme (levy of Christian boys), who held the highest posts in the
Ottoman army and government. Rumelia was also a centre of Ottoman Islamic
culture, which flourished in the religious schools (medreses) and mosques in
Üsküb, Istip (Stip), Prizren, Pristina, Monastir, and Edirne. Islamic mystic
brotherhoods found large followings in Bulgaria, Albania,
and Bosnia-Herzegovina.


The Greeks deleted the word
Macedonia in 1913 and they named it New Territory. Later on Northern
Greece and they only recently revived the name Macedonia.
Ilinden the Macedonian
The false propaganda that you repeat above is part of the
Fyromian scam. It is completely false. When the Ottoman Turks
were driven out of the real area of ancient Macedonia by the
Macedonian and other Greeks in 1912/13 the area was called
Macedonia by the Greeks and all of the world from that time.

Greece formed the Directorate of Macedonia in 1913, the first
official use of the name Macedonia in the territory of Macedonia
since the disappearance of the Roman diocese.

http://truth.macedonia.gr/maps.html

"After the violent turmoil of the Balkan Wars, all was peaceful and quiet,
at least according to the report District Director of Langadhas had sent to
the prefect of Thessaloniki. And yet that same year (1914), the Ottoman
General Consulate of Salonika was protesting to the GOVERNOR GENERAL OF
MACEDONIA that a number of atrocities had been
committed against Muslims in the Langadhas district." pp.164

Anastasia N. Karakasidou, "Fields of Wheat, Hills of Blood", Chicago, 1997

For those interested in historical details, the name of the first Governor
of Macedonia was Constantinos Raktivan who was placed in office by the Greek
gvt. in 1913.

http://www.hri.org/Martis/contents/doc4.html

http://www.hri.org/Martis/contents/doc9.html

http://www.hri.org/Martis/contents/doc23.html


from: Spirit of Truth

(using June's e-mail to communicate to you)!
m***@yahoo.com
2005-01-18 15:17:39 UTC
Permalink
Both words "zorba" and "chorba" (spelled as corba in Turkish) are
Turkish words. "Zorba" means thug or bully, "chorba" soup.
asteriades
2005-01-18 15:55:25 UTC
Permalink
Yes , here we have it! Zorba was turkish!

One by one , our heroes are lost ... Lets face it no one can withstand
turkish civilisation.

It stinks from a thousand miles!
Seanie PWNs Tsolakis
2005-01-20 23:24:23 UTC
Permalink
It stinks from a thousand KILOMETRES Mr. Theodore Mavroidis BECAUSE
that's the range of your filthy girik-odour

Thank GOD you live under the Heathrow flightpath Theo, The jetblast
knocks your stench away from my exclusive, stockbroker belt suburb
*ROTFFLMFAOAY*
Zhivko Apostolovski
2005-01-18 20:54:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by m***@yahoo.com
Both words "zorba" and "chorba" (spelled as corba in Turkish) are
Turkish words. "Zorba" means thug or bully, "chorba" soup.
I would not like to speculate about the origins of the word "chorba", but
the Macedonians have it in their vocabulary, as well. The Greeks do not have
"ch", "sh" or "zh" sounds. So instead of "chips", they say "cips", instead
of "fish" they say "fis", instead of "ne mozhi" (in macedonian, meaning "can
not be (so)", in english), they say "ne mozi" (I was hearing a lot of this
by the greek border personnel when refusing something to the Macedonians).
Jason K. Lambrou
2005-01-18 23:29:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Zhivko Apostolovski
Post by m***@yahoo.com
Both words "zorba" and "chorba" (spelled as corba in Turkish) are
Turkish words. "Zorba" means thug or bully, "chorba" soup.
I would not like to speculate about the origins of the word "chorba", but
the Macedonians have it in their vocabulary, as well. The Greeks do not have
"ch", "sh" or "zh" sounds. So instead of "chips", they say "cips", instead
of "fish" they say "fis", instead of "ne mozhi" (in macedonian, meaning "can
not be (so)", in english), they say "ne mozi" (I was hearing a lot of this
by the greek border personnel when refusing something to the Macedonians).
get your facts straight or clean your ears out
now read this:tsip,tzeneral,tsatsa etc.at least
we saaythe whole word, you mongols can not even say
Kastoria, Thessalonkiki, say that 100 times keke.
June R Harton
2005-01-19 05:33:27 UTC
Permalink
"Zhivko Apostolovski" <***@bigpond.net.au> wrote in message news:tIeHd.123521$***@news-server.bigpond.net.au...

Bulgar, why are you trolling this Greek Ng with your lies?



from: Spirit of Truth

(using June's e-mail to communicate to you)!
Yannis the Macedonian
2005-01-19 16:29:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Zhivko Apostolovski
I would not like to speculate about the origins of the word "chorba", but
the Macedonians have it in their vocabulary, as well. The Greeks do not have
"ch", "sh" or "zh" sounds. So instead of "chips", they say "cips", instead
of "fish" they say "fis", instead of "ne mozhi" (in macedonian, meaning "can
not be (so)", in english), they say "ne mozi" (I was hearing a lot of this
by the greek border personnel when refusing something to the
Macedonians).



But we can say Zorba the Greek. And many Greek dialect do have sounds zh
and sh.

But, for God sake, what does this imply?
After all can you SlavoSkopians say Macedonian toponyms? Can you say
Thessaloniki, Anthemous, Methoni, .... ?? Of course not. No Slavic language
has sount th ( as in think).
Does this don't allow you to steal our tribal name ??
IDIOTS !!
Istor
Macedonia, Greece
unknown
2005-01-20 02:40:33 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 20:54:49 GMT, "Zhivko Apostolovski"
Post by Zhivko Apostolovski
Post by m***@yahoo.com
Both words "zorba" and "chorba" (spelled as corba in Turkish) are
Turkish words. "Zorba" means thug or bully, "chorba" soup.
I would not like to speculate about the origins of the word "chorba", but
the Macedonians have it in their vocabulary, as well. The Greeks do not have
"ch", "sh" or "zh" sounds. So instead of "chips", they say "cips", instead
of "fish" they say "fis", instead of "ne mozhi" (in macedonian, meaning "can
not be (so)", in english), they say "ne mozi" (I was hearing a lot of this
by the greek border personnel when refusing something to the Macedonians).
It is amazing that an idiot like you who does not speak Greek can
pontificate on the Greek language. You have absolutely no clue.

ADR
choro-nik
2005-01-20 06:18:57 UTC
Permalink
See marktrivers' text below which I have taken the liberty of changing to red .... and cut out the bullshit all of you.

And particularly YOU Yasono. You are out of your depth here.

Both words entered the Greek language from Turkish.
--
choro-nik
********
Post by unknown
On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 20:54:49 GMT, "Zhivko Apostolovski"
Post by Zhivko Apostolovski
Post by m***@yahoo.com
Both words "zorba" and "chorba" (spelled as corba in Turkish) are
Turkish words. "Zorba" means thug or bully, "chorba" soup.
I would not like to speculate about the origins of the word "chorba", but
the Macedonians have it in their vocabulary, as well. The Greeks do not have
"ch", "sh" or "zh" sounds. So instead of "chips", they say "cips", instead
of "fish" they say "fis", instead of "ne mozhi" (in macedonian, meaning "can
not be (so)", in english), they say "ne mozi" (I was hearing a lot of this
by the greek border personnel when refusing something to the Macedonians).
It is amazing that an idiot like you who does not speak Greek can
pontificate on the Greek language. You have absolutely no clue.
ADR
choro-nik
2005-01-20 06:32:46 UTC
Permalink
And if you read the book you will see how affectionately Zorba talks of his
old Turkish music teacher as a civilizing influence on him.
--
choro-nik
********
If Greeks did not live with Turks for 500-600 years as both subjects of
Ottoman empire, Greek would still be as savage as under Byzantine rule.
Thanks to the Turks, Greeks managed to gain and learn a few things.
They would have no music, no edible food, no nothing.
Even the only half-way decent movie (American made after all) Greeks
are best proud of is named "Zorba" a Turkish name. They have nothing
their own.
m***@yahoo.com
2005-01-20 15:14:13 UTC
Permalink
Yes, of course, Turks had some civilizing influence of some Greeks; on
Greeks who were not direct descendants of the original savages, but the
Greeks who were already mixed in culture and blood with Turks and other
higher humans. The original savage Greek homos are uncilized
blood-thirsty brutes as they were back in the history during the
Alexander the Homo times.
premium
2005-01-20 18:05:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by m***@yahoo.com
Yes, of course, Turks had some civilizing influence of some Greeks; on
Greeks who were not direct descendants of the original savages, but the
Greeks who were already mixed in culture and blood with Turks and other
higher humans. The original savage Greek homos are uncilized
blood-thirsty brutes as they were back in the history during the
Alexander the Homo times.
Yep, "uncilized", says the "civilized" Turkish moron. What a surprise!

LOL!
++
2005-01-20 06:56:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Zhivko Apostolovski
Post by m***@yahoo.com
Both words "zorba" and "chorba" (spelled as corba in Turkish) are
Turkish words. "Zorba" means thug or bully, "chorba" soup.
I would not like to speculate about the origins of the word "chorba", but
the Macedonians have it in their vocabulary, as well. The Greeks do not have
"ch", "sh" or "zh" sounds. So instead of "chips", they say "cips", instead
of "fish" they say "fis", instead of "ne mozhi" (in macedonian, meaning "can
not be (so)", in english), they say "ne mozi" (I was hearing a lot of this
by the greek border personnel when refusing something to the Macedonians).
Most of those border guys and gals like to bait you, like, when
entering, and since they are taking a lot of time with your passport,
you have to answer :

"How did you like Yugoslavia?"

"Didn't go to Yugoslavia this trip."

"Why are you entering Macedonia?"

"I want to see what the Greek parts look like"

"So, how was Skopje"

"Great. Been there?"
Yannis the Macedonian
2005-01-20 18:37:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by ++
"How did you like Yugoslavia?"
"Didn't go to Yugoslavia this trip."
"Why are you entering Macedonia?"
"I want to see what the Greek parts look like"
"So, how was Skopje"
"Great. Been there?"
Galinitsa my dear, what is Macedonian in Skopje ?? Heroes maybe ?
What is not Bulgarian in Skopje? Albanians maybe or SlavoSkopians' language
??
IDIOT !!
Istor
Macedonia, Greece
Seanie PWNs Tsolakis
2005-01-20 23:26:39 UTC
Permalink
Yenis my dear

What is English in (sic) your pidjin ?

*LMFAOAY*
Yannis the Macedonian
2005-01-18 16:35:52 UTC
Permalink
"Zhivko Apostolovski" <***@bigpond.net.au> wrote:
A bit lenghty, but a self explanatory article.
Zorba the Greek Unmasked: Chorba the Macedonian
by Dr. Alex K. Gigeroff, Ph.D.
Originally published September, 1990
........................
And, Kazantzakis did that by beginning with one word SOUP. CHORBA!
==================================



Bre Zhivko, what is Macedonian on you ?? Heroes maybe ??
Istor
Macedonia, Greece
++
2005-01-18 19:05:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Zhivko Apostolovski
A bit lenghty, but a self explanatory article.
Zorba the Greek Unmasked: Chorba the Macedonian
Amazing
Zhivko Apostolovski
2005-01-18 20:59:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Zhivko Apostolovski
Post by Zhivko Apostolovski
A bit lenghty, but a self explanatory article.
Zorba the Greek Unmasked: Chorba the Macedonian
Amazing
Nothing should amaze you about greek falsifications, ably supported by their
"parents" and guardians, the westerners. If Basil the Macedonian can be a
"Greek", why not "Zorba"? :-(
June R Harton
2005-01-19 05:39:22 UTC
Permalink
"Zhivko Apostolovski" <***@bigpond.net.au> wrote in message news:vMeHd.123523$***@news-server.bigpond.net.au...

""he used to" think = of men as Greeks, or Bulgars or Turks"

Obviously, Bulgar, your people were the Bulgars.

Case closed foolish, Bulgar.

:)



from: Spirit of Truth

(using June's e-mail to communicate to you)!
Yannis the Macedonian
2005-01-19 16:59:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Zhivko Apostolovski
Post by Zhivko Apostolovski
Post by Zhivko Apostolovski
Zorba the Greek Unmasked: Chorba the Macedonian
Amazing
Nothing should amaze you about greek falsifications, ably supported by their
"parents" and guardians, the westerners. If Basil the Macedonian can be a
"Greek", why not "Zorba"? :-(
We don't honor Bulgarian heroes. We don't believe propaganda that writes
letters of Alexander to Aristoteles.

And if Zorba is SlavoSkopian because of his name then what about people
like Alexander, Philip, Polysperchon, Parmenion, Kleitos, Olympias,
Vereniki, Filotas, .....
Istor
Macedonia, Greece
Dirty Harry
2005-01-19 17:43:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Yannis the Macedonian
We don't honor Bulgarian heroes.
Why should you when you have Turkish heroes to honor?
Yannis the Macedonian
2005-01-19 18:19:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dirty Harry
Post by Yannis the Macedonian
We don't honor Bulgarian heroes.
Why should you when you have Turkish heroes to honor?
Do you mean Delcev, Gruev, Mihailov, Miladinov, Misirkov, Sarafov,
Lozanchef, ...... ????
No, we don't honor them. We just know that they were Bulgarians.
Istor
Macedonia, Greece
Seanie PWNs Tsolakis
2005-01-20 23:28:39 UTC
Permalink
They do actually honor two Bulgarian heros in the Grik Orthodox church

This YENIS dickhead knows nothing and simply loves to put his foot in
his mouth again & again

*LOL*

PWNT !
unknown
2005-01-20 02:38:12 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 20:59:07 GMT, "Zhivko Apostolovski"
Post by Zhivko Apostolovski
Post by Zhivko Apostolovski
Post by Zhivko Apostolovski
A bit lenghty, but a self explanatory article.
Zorba the Greek Unmasked: Chorba the Macedonian
Amazing
Nothing should amaze you about greek falsifications, ably supported by their
"parents" and guardians, the westerners. If Basil the Macedonian can be a
"Greek", why not "Zorba"? :-(
Who the "hell" was Basil the Macedonian????


This is promising to be a good one!!!

ADR


PS: I supposed that you can also tell us that the greatest scholar of
Macedonia in the middle ages, St. Gregory Palamas, has written works
in Slavic that have been lost of all these centuries and have now
being discovered in Skopje. How about that???
Zhivko Apostolovski
2005-01-20 09:34:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by unknown
On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 20:59:07 GMT, "Zhivko Apostolovski"
Post by Zhivko Apostolovski
Post by Zhivko Apostolovski
Post by Zhivko Apostolovski
A bit lenghty, but a self explanatory article.
Zorba the Greek Unmasked: Chorba the Macedonian
Amazing
Nothing should amaze you about greek falsifications, ably supported by their
"parents" and guardians, the westerners. If Basil the Macedonian can be a
"Greek", why not "Zorba"? :-(
Who the "hell" was Basil the Macedonian????
He may have been a Roman emperor, grkoman. :-) A self declared Macedonian, a
Roman emperor! Can you imagine that, grkoman? :-)
Post by unknown
This is promising to be a good one!!!
Was the answer good enough, for you? :-)
Post by unknown
PS: I supposed that you can also tell us that the greatest scholar of
Macedonia in the middle ages, St. Gregory Palamas, has written works
in Slavic that have been lost of all these centuries and have now
being discovered in Skopje. How about that???
You are barking up the wrong tree, grkoman. This thread is about "Zorba" the
"Greek". Do you have anything to say about your "Greek"? :-) Or will you
stick to "fis and tsips" type replies? :-)
June R Harton
2005-01-19 05:34:40 UTC
Permalink
"++" <***@erols.com> wrote in message news:2OudnTGWlNFgwHDcRVn-***@rcn.net...

Amazing? How can anyone but someone very dim believe stupid lies like that?

No Macedonia was occupied or divided:

European Turkey! Look:

Article 23 of the Berlin Treaty, 1878,
"The Sublime Porte is obliged to carefully implement the Organic Statute in
the island of Crete, introducing changes which would be assessed as
justified.
Analogous statutes adapted to local requirements, with the exception of the
tax exemption approved to Crete, will be equally introduced in the other
parts of European Turkey as well, which are not subject of particular
drawing up in this Treaty. The Sublime Porte is to engage special
commissions, composed to a great extent of local members, which
are to work out the details of the new statutes for each province.
The organization projects to be worked out by the commissions
will be submitted for examination to the Sublime Porte, which in
turn, before passing any of the acts, will request the opinion of the
European commission established for Eastern Rumelia."


And Rumelia from:
http://www.britannica.com/bcom/eb/article/1/0,5716,66071+1,00.html
For fair use only


ENCYCLOPÆDIA BRITANNICA

Rumelia

Turkish RUMELI, the former Ottoman possessions in the Balkans. The name
means "land of the Romans"--i.e., Byzantines. The Turks first began to make
conquests in the Balkans in the mid-14th century. The land was divided into
fiefs of various size that were administered by cavalry officers; local
notables who converted to Islam also shared in the administration. The
administrative configuration of Rumelia changed frequently until 1864, when
the unit of administrative division became defined as the province, or
vilayet, which was in turn divided into sancak (subprovinces). The Danube
vilayet was formed first, in 1864, followed by those of Janina (Ioannina)
and Salonika (Thessaloníki, in Greece) in 1867. Under the Treaty of Berlin
(1878), the Danube vilayet formed the independent state of Bulgaria under
Ottoman suzerainty; southern Bulgaria formed the autonomous province of
Eastern Rumelia with its capital at Philippopoli (Plovdiv); and western
Rumelia was divided into the Edirne, Salonika, and Monastir ils (provinces).
In 1885 Bulgaria annexed Eastern Rumelia, and by the Treaty of Bucharest
(1913), Monastir was ceded to Serbia and Salonika to Greece; only Edirne
remained under Ottoman rule.
In the 15th and 16th centuries Rumelia functioned as a reservoir of the
devsirme (levy of Christian boys), who held the highest posts in the
Ottoman army and government. Rumelia was also a centre of Ottoman Islamic
culture, which flourished in the religious schools (medreses) and mosques in
Üsküb, Istip (Stip), Prizren, Pristina, Monastir, and Edirne. Islamic mystic
brotherhoods found large followings in Bulgaria, Albania,
and Bosnia-Herzegovina.


The Greeks deleted the word
Macedonia in 1913 and they named it New Territory. Later on Northern
Greece and they only recently revived the name Macedonia.
Ilinden the Macedonian
The false propaganda that you repeat above is part of the
Fyromian scam. It is completely false. When the Ottoman Turks
were driven out of the real area of ancient Macedonia by the
Macedonian and other Greeks in 1912/13 the area was called
Macedonia by the Greeks and all of the world from that time.

Greece formed the Directorate of Macedonia in 1913, the first
official use of the name Macedonia in the territory of Macedonia
since the disappearance of the Roman diocese.

http://truth.macedonia.gr/maps.html

"After the violent turmoil of the Balkan Wars, all was peaceful and quiet,
at least according to the report District Director of Langadhas had sent to
the prefect of Thessaloniki. And yet that same year (1914), the Ottoman
General Consulate of Salonika was protesting to the GOVERNOR GENERAL OF
MACEDONIA that a number of atrocities had been
committed against Muslims in the Langadhas district." pp.164

Anastasia N. Karakasidou, "Fields of Wheat, Hills of Blood", Chicago, 1997

For those interested in historical details, the name of the first Governor
of Macedonia was Constantinos Raktivan who was placed in office by the Greek
gvt. in 1913.

http://www.hri.org/Martis/contents/doc4.html

http://www.hri.org/Martis/contents/doc9.html

http://www.hri.org/Martis/contents/doc23.html


from: Spirit of Truth

(using June's e-mail to communicate to you)!
unknown
2005-01-20 02:36:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Zhivko Apostolovski
Post by Zhivko Apostolovski
A bit lenghty, but a self explanatory article.
Zorba the Greek Unmasked: Chorba the Macedonian
Amazing
The amazing part is that you even find the above article credible
enough to enter "amazing".

ADR
++
2005-01-20 07:19:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by unknown
Post by Zhivko Apostolovski
Post by Zhivko Apostolovski
A bit lenghty, but a self explanatory article.
Zorba the Greek Unmasked: Chorba the Macedonian
Amazing
The amazing part is that you even find the above article credible
enough to enter "amazing".
Certainly, the character is from an elastic territory, although the
Chorba part seemed a little forced. A Zorba is a troublemaker or a
bossy person in Turkish but it is also a surname in Greece for real.
Considering the letters in the name, I would imagine that the surname is
Turkish, not Greek origin.
Post by unknown
ADR
June R Harton
2005-02-04 03:45:43 UTC
Permalink
"++" <***@erols.com> wrote in message news:5uGdnZh9Ws7pxnLcRVn-***@rcn.net...

No, Schneider he is saying you are stupid.




from: Spirit of Truth

(using June's e-mail to communicate to you)!
June R Harton
2005-01-19 05:28:58 UTC
Permalink
"Zhivko Apostolovski" <***@bigpond.net.au> wrote in message news:IY5Hd.123201$***@news-server.bigpond.net.au...

You post such easily exposed lies, Bulgar. I see you are still petrified
of truth!

:)


In a letter to Prof. Marin Drinov of May 25, 1888 Kuzman Shapkarev writes:
"But even stranger is the name Macedonians, which was imposed on us only 10
to 15 years ago by outsiders, and not as something by our own
intellectuals... Yet the people in Macedonia know nothing of that ancient
name, reintroduced today with a cunning aim on the one hand and a stupid one
on the other. They know the older word: "Bugari", although mispronounced:
they have even adopted it as peculiarly theirs, inapplicable to other
Bulgarians. You can find more about this in the introduction to the booklets
I am sending you. They call their own Macedono-Bulgarian dialect the
"Bugarski language", while the rest of the Bulgarian dialects they refer to
as the "Shopski language". (Makedonski pregled, IX, 2, 1934, p. 55; the
original letter is kept in the Marin Drinov Museum in Sofia, and it is
available for examination and study)
Here is the text in the original:

"No pochudno e imeto Makedonci, koeto naskoro, edvay predi 10-15 godini, ni
natrapiha i to otvqn, a ne kakto nyakoi mislyat ot samata nasha
inteligenciya... Narodqt obache v Makedoniya ne znae nishto za tova
arhaichesko, a dnes, s lukava cel ot edna strana, s glupeshka ot druga,
podnoveno prozvishte; toy si znae postaroto: Bugari, makar i nepravilno
proiznasyano, daje osvoyava si go kato sobstveno i preimushtestveno svoe,
nejeli za drugite Bqlgari. Za tova shte vidite i v predgovora na izpratenite
mi knijici. Toy naricha Bugarski ezik svoeto Makaedono-bqlgarsko narechie,
kogato drugite bqlgarski narechiya naricha Shopski."


And here:


Reference source for Gotse Delchev's numerous utterings of 'We are
Bulgarians'......

http://www.ucc.ie/staff/jprodr/macedonia/macmodnat2.html

Even Gotse Delchev, the famous Macedonian revolutionary leader, whose nom de
guerre was Ahil (Achilles), refers to "the Slavs of Macedonia as
'Bulgarians' in an offhanded manner without seeming to indicate that such a
designation was a point of contention" (Perry 1988:23).
In his correspondence Gotse Delchev often states clearly and simply, "We are
Bulgarians" (MacDermott 1978:192,273).


And here:


For fair use only.

http://members.tripod.com/~dimobetchev/documents/ilinden.htm

" Considering the critical and terrible situation that the Bulgarian
population of the Bitola Vilayet found itself in and following the ravages
and cruelties done by the Turkish troops and irregulars, ... considering
the fact that everything Bulgarian runs the risk of perishing and
disappearing without a trace because of violence, hunger, and the upcoming
misery, the Head Quarters finds it to be its obligation to draw the
attention of the respected Bulgarian government to the pernicious
consequences vis-a-vis the Bulgarian nation, in case the latter does not
fulfill its duty towards its brethren of race here in an imposing fashion
which is necessary by virtue of the present ordeal for the common Bulgarian
Fatherland...

...Being in command of our people's movement, we appeal to you on behalf of
the enslaved Bulgarian to help him in the most effective way - by waging
war.We believe that the response of the people in free Bulgaria will be the
same.

... No bulgarian school is opened, neither will it be opened... Nobody
thinks of education when he is outlawed by the state because he bears the
name Bulgar...


Waiting for your patriotic intervention, we are pleased to inform you that
we have in our disposition the armed forces we have spared by now.

The Head Quarters of the Ilinden Uprising"

Damian GRUEV, Boris SARAFOV, Atanas LOZANTCHEV

This memorandum was handed to Dr.Kozhuharov, the Bulgarian consul in Bitola,

and transmitted by him to the government in Sofia with report N441 from
September 17th, 1903. "

And here:


http://www.bulgaria.com/VMRO/document.htm

http://www.bulgaria.com/VMRO/documen1.htm

http://www.bulgaria.com/VMRO/documen2.htm

http://www.bulgaria.com/VMRO/documen3.htm

http://www.bulgaria.com/VMRO/drzhava.htm

http://www.bulgaria.com/VMRO/exarchy.htm

http://w3.tyenet.com/kozlich/mapovska4a.htm

And finally here

http://www.bulgaria.com/VMRO/bitola06.htm

http://www.historymuseum.org/items.php3?nid=199&name=ochrid



from: Spirit of Truth

(using June's e-mail to communicate to you)!
unknown
2005-01-20 02:35:07 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 10:57:44 GMT, "Zhivko Apostolovski"
<***@bigpond.net.au> wrote:


This is the most laughable, most hilarious and most idiotic post that
I have seen.

In summary, Zhivko, you could not have more wrong even if you tried.
In fact the area that Zorbas came from was a solidly Greek-speaking
area at his time (as the area north of Olympus usually was). Even the
Bulgarians excluded this area from their carefully constructed maps of
Macedonia (wisely). Second, he was a determined fighter against the
comitadjis. Third, his anti-Church actions was part of a
semi-biographical novel by Kazantzakis, an author with many books
targeted against the hypocricy of the Church and deeper meaning of
being Christian such as "Christ Recrucified" and the "Last Temptation
of Christ" (filmed recently by Martin Scorcese). For your
information, Nikos Kazantzakis was eventually excommunicated by the
Greek Church.

In his book, Alexis Zorbas was the epitome of a Greek, the force of
the people, the unbounded spirit that could see through silly customs
and stupid pretentions. As the novel was based on the life of Nikos
Kazantzakis (to an extent), don't you think that if Zorbas was
anything but Greek, we would have heard about it a bit???

So, thanks for entertaining us here but the article below is so
ridiculous, so distorted, it simply portrays in stark constrast the
lengths that Macedonists would go to to revise history to their ends.
However, this "bird" won't fly.

ADR
Post by Zhivko Apostolovski
A bit lenghty, but a self explanatory article.
Zorba the Greek Unmasked: Chorba the Macedonian
by Dr. Alex K. Gigeroff, Ph.D.
Originally published September, 1990
To make a good soup you have to collect the ingredients and cook it very slowly.
My Dedo Naumche was born in Macedonia way back about 1870. I never met him but I've heard lots about him. Sometimes I think about him. Apparently he really liked soup and I imagine that he enjoyed it ever since he was a child. He enjoyed soup as an experience and everything that went into making and eating it. He enjoyed the whole process. He loved having food in the house. He enjoyed the aroma of the dish as it bubbled and simmered slowly in the big pot that hung on a rack in the fireplace. And just as much, he loved that first taste, every mouthful and particularly the last spoonful.
In my mind's eye, I can see him when he had finished his soup that he had eaten with home made bread. I see him brushing aside his long moustache to either side of his face with the back of his hand and hear his sigh of satisfaction. I am sure that at moments like that he was a contented man who knew two essential things: who he was and what he liked.
The soup he liked best was a "CHORBA". It is sometimes made using a cow's belly or tripe. It's a robust lively soup, a soup that sings in the mouth, that makes the taste buds come alive and dance up and down. It is a soup tasty beyond belief and fully satisfying. Chorba is a man's soup, and women love it. Who wouldn't? It gives such life-giving energy to everyone.
It's easy enough to make: Wash the tripe and boil it then simmer it with salt, garlic and black pepper; add a cup of hot broth spoonful by spoonful into a bowl of two beaten eggs, some lemon juice and do this slowly so the mix doesn't curdle; add a cup of light cream into the mix and then pour the whole thing back into the pot stirring all the while. Of course, while the tripe is simmering you can add whatever vegetables you wish. To dress it up sprinkle the top with whatever happens to be around like some chopped green onions or leeks, some chives or some parsley. Voila! There you have it, "CHORBA".
Other countries might have different names for it. Certainly Chorba does not have an international reputation. But if it were advertised widely enough, given some publicity, show famous movie stars eating it in a movie, give it an eye catching name, why it could become as famous as anything. It could become as famous as "Zorba The Greek" and known the world over. It might even become popular. But it would still be Chorba as we know it.
But enough about soup. Let's change the subject.
Changing Names
People sometimes change their names, especially when their original names are not socially or politically acceptable. There was a lot of name, changing in our part of the world. Common Macedonian names were transformed slightly so that they would appear to sound and look more Greek, or more Serbian or more Bulgarian. It all depended on which one of the surrounding nations had occupied which part of Macedonia after 1913. So totally did the neighbours divide up Macedonia, that there was no Macedonia left. Although Macedonia appeared on maps for thousands of years it very suddenly vanished. But it continued to exist in history, in people's minds and in people's hearts. In the long run these are the most important places.
The Macedonian people were still there, those who hadn't emigrated and spread throughout the world. But the Macedonians who remained were fearful, and with good reason, to call themselves Macedonians or to use their historic names.
The skies were to darken even further for the Macedonians in Greece. As most Macedonians know and as the world is slowly learning, in and around 1928 the Greek government began to change all Macedonian village names to Greek names. And they did that for the mountain ranges and for the rivers. Thousands of years of history were wiped out with a pen for the government wanted the territory to 'look' like Greece. For example, the village where my grandfather Naumche was born, Oshchima, probably meaning 'there is still more' was changed to Trigona, Greek for 'Three Corners'. It was a new name plucked out of the air! Not very imaginative either, but the significance of the change was enormous.
Seeing which way the political boundaries had shifted, watching how historic place names were being changed all around them, seeing how the Greek language was being pushed throughout the schools, the people realized quickly enough that their whole way of life at the dominant political level had shifted and changed. Many frightened people for honest reasons of survival did a quick make-up job on their own names as well.
Abracadabra! Greeks seemed to rise up everywhere where only Macedonians had lived for many, many centuries. Many people fled, those who could, to surrounding countries, and to Canada, the U.S.A. and to Australia and elsewhere. But those who could not escape began TO DISGUISE THEMSELVES for protection from the government under new, Greek-sounding names.
Survival, survival, stoic survival is the strength of peasants. Not only survival against the chance devastations of weather, storms, floods, but survival in the face of being shot dead by the politicos and their armies.
The problem for the people that remained is easy enough to understand and to accept. They were given no real choice. Change your name or suffer the consequences. The choice was really change your name or die! One can almost hear the old folk speaking among themselves: "What if we change our names, change the sound a little, change one or two letters on a piece of paper? What does it matter if they will only let us live? There is nothing to it! What's in a name? It is food we need in our bellies, food in our children's bellies, food for our cattle and animals. It doesn't matter what name you call it, serve up the, "Chorba"! We can at least get our tongues around that, get some food into our bellies so that our families can live. We'll manage somehow to get our tongues around the new language, the new names later. SURVIVE FIRST!"
I doubt if any one of them ever forgot their real historic family names. How could they? The reality was that the Greeks had captured the land, the people, the stage on which life is played. The children were taught to play in Greek, to speak in Greek, to read in Greek. Like in classic Greek theatre, a mask had to be worn.
And the Greek government could say, "See they have Greek Masks, they speak Greek, there are no Macedonians here". Sadly, oh so sadly, the Greek Orthodox Church also played a role like an attendant lord, sacrificing and serving up one of the oldest Christian people to political masters.
The Drama Continues
If you have not already met with him, allow me to introduce a real life historic character on to the stage. George Zorba. He is the real person on whom the novel and movie, "Zorba The Greek" is based. This is where the soup thickens, and the plot unfurls.
He was born in 1865, in a Macedonian village (now called Kolindros) about 25 miles from Salonika. Curiously, Dedo Naumche was born a few years later only about 80 miles to the northwest as the stork flies from where Zorba was born. That whole area was under the occupation of the Turks until 1912. Life for poor Macedonian peasants was probably not too much different from one small village to the next. Clearly Zorba was not born a Greek citizen. And from his name it is fairly certain that he was not a Turk. What was he?
In a fascinating article, "Searching for the Real Zorba" written by Alan Linn and published in the Canadian MD magazine, the author doesn't ask or answer the question of Zorba's ethnic identity. The article gives an historic account of the real Zorba; how Zorba's father quarrelled with a Turk and fled his village, travelled south into Greece taking his family with him where George Zorba grew up; how his mother died when he was 19 years old; how his father retired to a monastery at Mt. Athos; and how Zorba, penniless, began to make his way back to his father's village. From these facts it looks as though he wanted to go back to where he was born, where his roots were, where he must have felt he belonged, and where perhaps some relatives still survived.
We are told that he worked as a herdsman, tending sheep and goats, as a woodcutter, as a digger in a mine, as a pedlar, a blacksmith, a labourer, a smuggler, beggar and musician. He was a talented survivor by all accounts.
In 1912 he "joined the fighting". But from the article we do not learn who he was fighting with, against whom, or where. One biographer apparently describes him as burning and pillaging "Bulgarian Villages." Where? Where were these "Bulgarian Villages"? In Bulgaria? This was a war against the Turks wasn't it? What was going on?
If we look to the novel we learn that Zorba fought in the mountains of Macedonia with Pavlos Melas, a Greek Officer, who distinguished himself in the war against the Bulgarian 'Comitadjic' or guerilla fighters. In the novel Zorba describes how he cut the throat of a priest, a Bulgarian comitadji. From this information taken by itself one might prematurely conclude that Zorba had become politically Greek. But follow, the story further to see what Zorba does. A few days later, Zorba says he encountered five little children dressed in black, barefoot, begging, three girls and two boys, the oldest ten years old and the youngest still a baby. On learning that it was the children's father that he had killed, he says tears came to his eyes, and "the earth spun like a millstone." He took his purse and gave the children all the Turkish money and gold he had and all his supplies, and then he tore up the Saint Sophia medal he had embroidered with the hairs of his own head and threw it away and
ran. He says he rescued himself from the ideas of country, the Church, and money, all at once. He said "he used to" think of men as Greeks, or Bulgars or Turks and burned villages, cut throats, robbed and raped women, but he calls himself "a swine" for having done so. He says to himself, "To hell with you right away, you ass." He denounces and gives up all ideas of country, of nationalism and says, "...But I am delivered from all that. God be praised! it's finished for me!" As indeed, in his day, was Macedonia finished.
Zorba was ashamed and hated himself for the part he had taken in the war, and the killings. One wonders, had the real George Zorba become a pacifist? Had he reverted to becoming a peasant without a country and hating the very idea of country because of what had happened to him? Had he become apolitical as well?
From that part of the book what seems to remain is a deep sorrow and compassion for his fellow man regardless of their nationality.
Let us return here to the historic facts of George Zorba's life. After fighting against the Turks in the war of 1912, he retreated to the monastery at Mt. Athos like his father before him but he could not stand the place. Shortly thereafter he met the author-poet Nikos Kazantzakis and together they planned their adventure to develop a mine. This project was quite simply a hoax, a sham to avoid conscription into the Greek army in the war of 1914-1918 as apparently mineworkers were exempted from military service. The mine had a timely collapse in 1918 when the war ended.
Apparently George Zorba and Kazantzakis next met on a trip to Russia that Kazantzakis had organized to "rescue Greeks fleeing Bolshevism". That too sounds very strange. The two men stayed in a hotel housing refugee dancing girls and Zorba returned back to Greece with three beautiful Russian women. None of that sounds as if he rescued political dissenters or heavyweights.
George Zorba drifted north into what is now Yugoslavia and settled in a village a few miles from Skopje. For almost the last twenty years of his life the historic George Zorba lived in the centre of the Macedonian countryside until he died at about the age of 77 in 1942.
A magnificent soup can move the taste buds in all kinds of directions and an open mind can move around just as easily. Why, as a middle-aged man in his late 50's, would Zorba move north into the Macedonian heartland? If he were Greek, why wouldn't he have moved south and lived anywhere in Greece? Having deserted the Greek cause in 1912 in the war against the Turks, was he afraid for his life? Was he choosing to spend his last years among a strange people and culture, or was he going to live with the people he knew, with the people with whom he felt closest? Would he speak Greek in a Macedonian village, or would he speak Macedonian? Was he a Greek among Macedonians, or was he... a MACEDONIAN?
Changing the Name of the Novel
The book was written by Kazantzakis and published in Greek in 1946 during the civil war between Macedonians and Greeks. The original title was "The Life and Times of Alexe Zormpa". Zormpa? How peculiar? But you did notice that the book originally was not called "Zorba The Greek".
When the book was first translated into English in 1952 the title of the book was changed to "Zorba The Greek." Why? And it was under the new name that the movie was made in 1964 that further helped to make the character of Zorba world famous. It is because of the new English title of the book and the movie that the whole world has been led astray as to the real ethnic and national identity of the legendary character. The world has come to think of Zorba as Greek, but is he?
A Close Reading of the Novel: Great Truths Revealed
There is no better evidence as to the ethnic and national identity of Zorba than the text of Kazantzakis' book itself.
When the main character in the book first meets Kazantzakis, but before he reveals his name he offers to work for the author as a cook. He says, "I can make soups you've never heard of, or thought of." That is Kazantzakis dropping the first clue about the name, Zorba as Chorba in Macedonian.
When asked his name the character replies as , follows: "Alexis Zorba. Sometimes they call me Baker's Shovel because I'm so lanky and my head is flattened like a griddlecake. Or else I'm called Passa Tempo because there was a time when I hawked roast pumpkin seeds. They call me Mildew too, because wherever I go, they say I get up to my tricks. Everything goes to the dogs. I have other nicknames as well, but we'll leave them for another time..."
Look now! As soon as we meet Zorba we find out he had many names! What is truly fascinating is how the nicknames he gives show a progression of decay, from a name associated with baking fresh bread, then the passing of time, and then mildew when bread turns bad and can't be eaten. What kind of tricks is Kazantzakis talking about? Is it tricks with names? Is that a clue from Kazantzakis to look out for word tricks?
Kazantzakis provides a further clue in the book when he writes further on, "Everything in this world has a hidden meaning ... men, animals, trees, stars ... (and notice that last one) ... it is only years later, too late, that you understand." Kazantzakis tells us that there are hidden meanings and to look further.
Let's look closer. The author has Zorba describe Macedonia. Now notice that in another separate paragraph he has Zorba speak about Greece, Bulgaria and Constantinople. Why does he place these in separate paragraphs you might wonder? Kazantzakis was a master writer, a master craftsman, and perhaps the greatest writer that Greece has produced in this century. It is not simply chance that he makes that separation.
Then there is the greatest revelation about Zorba. In the book, Zorba, talking about himself says,
"O wonderful Slav, may you live a thousand years!"
Are Greeks Slavs? Do they ever speak of themselves as being Slavs? Macedonians are Slavs, in an ethnic sense and a religious sense.
In the novel, Zorba sings Macedonian songs, a synthesis of "poetry, music and thought" as Kazantzakis describes them. Do you remember Zorba singing Macedonian songs in the movie? No, neither do I. Kazantzakis spoke Greek. He knew the difference between a Greek song and a Macedonian song. He did not use the name Macedonian to mean Greek. Kazantzakis was nobody's fool.
The author even asks Zorba to sing a song, "A Macedonian Song of your own country, Zorba". Oh mark Kazantzakis words well!
To mark the difference clearly, at another point Kazantzakis writes, "And don't forget, Zorba is a foreigner, a Macedonian, and it is the greatest disgrace we Cretans can bring on ourselves to raise a hand against a guest in our country...
Perhaps the saddest and most telling evidence of all about the distortions to Zorba's name is a letter Zorba writes from Romania that he signs, "Alexis Zorbescu". Later he also sends Kazantzakis a card, a postcard, from Serbia that is signed, "Alexis Zorbic". The last time Kazantzakis hears about his friend is a letter that he received from a schoolmaster in Skopje telling him of the death of Alexis Zorba.
Kazantzakis Respect for Zorba
For Kazantzakis, Zorba was a hero, and he placed him along side of Homer, Nietzche and Bergson whom he called "the bodyguards of the Odyssey", men who protect and develop man's freedom to think in the progression of human history. He elevated Zorba to the very pinnacle of human evolution, human achievement.
Kazantzakis believed that what Zorba was offering in his understanding and philosophy of living was a new Decalogue, nothing less than a new set of Ten Commandments for man in this world. He placed Zorba, in the illustrious company with Christ, Dante, Buddha, El Greco and others. It is astonishing, but here we have Kazantzakis, one of the great intellectuals of our age, a one-time Education Minister in the Greek Government, a writer who almost won the Nobel Prize for Literature, placing an ordinary Macedonian among the world's greatest philosophers, poets, painters, and spiritual leaders. Amazing!
That is a kind of respect that Macedonians seldom receive openly and publicly. It is also the kind of respect we must learn to give towards ourselves and our history.
Kazantzakis knew our history. In the preface to the English translation of his 'Alexander the Great', the translator, Theodora Vasilis, writes, "Zorba, the most popular of his (Kazantzakis') creations was fashioned in the image of the crafty Odysseus." If Odysseus was crafty and cunning we must open both of our eyes! Why did Kazantzakis reject the name 'George' and choose the name 'Alexis'? Was it because he simply liked the sound of the name and pulled it out of a hat? Or was Kazantzakis the writer acting as a 'koom', as a godfather and deliberately chose the name 'Alexis'? Did he do this so that the name would ring a bell of remembrance in our minds, a name associated with somebody? Who? What name? Very likely to remind us of Alexander the Great, the Macedonian who struggled to bring the whole world together, east and west.
Notice how both names have three words, the same balance, the same form: Alexander the Great - Zorba the Greek. If we search for the meaning of names we find Alexis means 'to ward off, keep off, protect'. Was the book about Zorba meant to be more than just a novel but a way of speaking to the world about the Macedonian Spirit?
Consider the initials of Kazantzakis' hero, 'A.Z.' - like the beginning and the end of the alphabet that Kazantzakis loved so much. And there too is the mysterious biblical "alpha and omega".
Was Kazantzakis hiding the true identity of his hero and sending forth a hidden message to the world in his hero's name! Was he doing what Zorba himself had done, changing a letter here and there as he did Romania and Serbia.
It was in 1952, three years after the civil war between the Greeks and Macedonians ended, that the book was translated into English with the new title, "Zorba The Greek". Kazantzakis was still alive and surely he knew of the translation. Surely he approved of the name and title to the book, and the question that arises is why did he do it? Why, if Kazantzakis was clearly giving the message throughout his book that Zorba was a Macedonian, with his own country, a Slav who should live for a thousand years, a man whom he admits he loved dearly in his life and for whom he had such respect and regard -- why would he allow the translation into English to be "Zorba The Greek"? What a puzzle?
Kazantzakis the Classic Scholar
Kazantzakis knew well enough that English is one of the great international world languages. No doubt he wanted his ideas and philosophy and those of Zorba to spread around the world. He even refers to Zorba as the new Sinbad the Sailor and he clearly must have had a world audience in mind.
One moment then! Was adding the words "The Greek" some kind of a sham, a trick, a disguise? Was this a hoax, just like their "mining operation" during the war? In the book itself in a dozen different ways he invites the reader to dig, dig, dig for the truth about his much-beloved character.
Was the new English title and translation of his book meant to be a mask for Zorba/ Chorba? Was "Zorba" intended to go around the world, disguised as "The Greek", fashioned and crafted to become world famous, and irony of ironies, in the end to reveal himself and to confront and confound the Greek politicians for their conduct towards all Macedonians. Is that what he was letting us know right at the beginning of the book when he was talking about names and wrote, "I get up to my tricks, Everything goes to the dogs?"
Observe the classic tradition in story, poetry, songs. In the classic epic songs of Homer, and in the epic songs in the Slavic oral tradition a hero frequently travels in disguise for the real purpose of making a rescue. When there is a disguise there must eventually be a recognition when the disguise is stripped away. In these recognition scenes, almost like a signal there would always be present at the moment of recognition a song or a musical instrument.
What Do We Find in the Novel?
True to classic tradition, when Zorba reveals himself as a Slav, a Macedonian, he sings and plays the santuri.
Who can doubt that Kazantzakis, whose greatest work was The Odyssey, A Modern Sequel, knew of these themes, these traditions of disguise and rescue.
Open Letter to Kazantzakis
"Nikos! Kazantzakis! I cry out to you in the beyond! I may be wrong about what you have written, what you intended, but I may be right? Throughout your work you called on the human spirit to dare, to look behind the masks of everything as you had spent your life doing. It is still worth doing Nikos!"
"I do not think that you meant to cast any insult on the memory of your friend who was dead by misrepresenting him around the world. I do think that you may have been trying to provide him with a kind of peasant's revenge after his death. Did you not, by writing, preserve and rescue for the world that Macedonian whom you had come to know and admire and respect. You rescued him from an almost total oblivion and through your spirit transformed the man into the undying literature of Freedom."
"Da ti ye arliya, Nikos"
"Nikos, is it time now to take away the disguise of "The Greek", from your friend George Zorba? What a wonderfully crafted mask Nikos, worthy of Odysseus himself. What a comic mask! And beneath that what, the mask of tragedy, the tragedy of Macedonians in Greece?"
"But you wouldn't want to leave us with another mask, one of comedy and one of tragedy would you? Where would the rescue and the resurrection be? Didn't you intend that Zorba should hold up and represent, not only the national ethnic identity of man, but much, much, more than that, the classic universal human craving for the ideal of freedom for the body of man."
"And didn't you Nikos want the world to know that you and Zorba were the best of friends on a personal level, on a human level, Macedonian and Greek. Weren't you describing a universal human brotherhood of work and struggle together for a kind of freedom for everyone with a decent respect for each other. And wasn't it above all petty politics? Wasn't it a message for politicians too? And wasn't one of the great messages that you wanted any reader to take from your story, your book, "Peace ... for the sake of the children?"
Nikos Kazantzakis died in Frieburg, Germany, on October 26th, 1957. His body was taken to Athens to lie in state. The Archbishop of Athens of the Greek Orthodox Church refused to permit the national honour or to celebrate a funeral mass for him. Kazantzakis name and the name of his hero Zorba/Chorba live on around the world and will to the end of time. I don't remember the name of the Archbishop.
Conclusion
"Zorba the Greek" has been a great international commercial success and a lot of people have been able to cat steak because of it. But steak is a passing thing, and TRUTH STICKS.
The evidence from George Zorba's life and from the novel clearly points to the conclusion that Zorba the Greek is in truth, Chorba the Macedonian.
Kazantzakis, a one-time Minister of Education in the government of Greece, and perhaps the greatest Greek writer of this century, hails and affirms a Macedonian and places him among the world's leaders.
By creating a mask, by writing an excellent novel, by contributing to the great literature of the world, Kazantzakis hid a great Macedonian, to protect and preserve him.
He saved, not the man Zorba/ Chorba, but even more important, the memory, the image, the philosophy, the life-view and the world-view of the Macedonian mind alive in the world.
The marvelous achievement of Kazantzakis is that he created an indelible universal statement of Freedom and Human Rights with the essential message of "Long Live the Macedonians".
And, Kazantzakis did that by beginning with one word SOUP. CHORBA!
Zhivko Apostolovski
2005-01-20 09:41:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by unknown
On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 10:57:44 GMT, "Zhivko Apostolovski"
This is the most laughable, most hilarious and most idiotic post that
I have seen.
In summary, Zhivko, you could not have more wrong even if you tried.
In fact the area that Zorbas came from was a solidly Greek-speaking
area at his time (as the area north of Olympus usually was). Even the
Bulgarians excluded this area from their carefully constructed maps of
Macedonia (wisely). Second, he was a determined fighter against the
comitadjis. Third, his anti-Church actions was part of a
semi-biographical novel by Kazantzakis, an author with many books
targeted against the hypocricy of the Church and deeper meaning of
being Christian such as "Christ Recrucified" and the "Last Temptation
of Christ" (filmed recently by Martin Scorcese). For your
information, Nikos Kazantzakis was eventually excommunicated by the
Greek Church.
In his book, Alexis Zorbas was the epitome of a Greek, the force of
the people, the unbounded spirit that could see through silly customs
and stupid pretentions. As the novel was based on the life of Nikos
Kazantzakis (to an extent), don't you think that if Zorbas was
anything but Greek, we would have heard about it a bit???
So, thanks for entertaining us here but the article below is so
ridiculous, so distorted, it simply portrays in stark constrast the
lengths that Macedonists would go to to revise history to their ends.
However, this "bird" won't fly.
ADR
And thus, accoprding to the "gospel" of the grkoman Retzios, "Zorba" the
"Greek" lived out his life deep in "Greek territory", few kilometres from
Skopje? :-)
Post by unknown
Post by Zhivko Apostolovski
A bit lenghty, but a self explanatory article.
Zorba the Greek Unmasked: Chorba the Macedonian
by Dr. Alex K. Gigeroff, Ph.D.
Originally published September, 1990
To make a good soup you have to collect the ingredients and cook it very slowly.
My Dedo Naumche was born in Macedonia way back about 1870. I never met
him but I've heard lots about him. Sometimes I think about him. Apparently
he really liked soup and I imagine that he enjoyed it ever since he was a
child. He enjoyed soup as an experience and everything that went into making
and eating it. He enjoyed the whole process. He loved having food in the
house. He enjoyed the aroma of the dish as it bubbled and simmered slowly in
the big pot that hung on a rack in the fireplace. And just as much, he loved
that first taste, every mouthful and particularly the last spoonful.
Post by unknown
Post by Zhivko Apostolovski
In my mind's eye, I can see him when he had finished his soup that he had
eaten with home made bread. I see him brushing aside his long moustache to
either side of his face with the back of his hand and hear his sigh of
satisfaction. I am sure that at moments like that he was a contented man who
knew two essential things: who he was and what he liked.
Post by unknown
Post by Zhivko Apostolovski
The soup he liked best was a "CHORBA". It is sometimes made using a cow's
belly or tripe. It's a robust lively soup, a soup that sings in the mouth,
that makes the taste buds come alive and dance up and down. It is a soup
tasty beyond belief and fully satisfying. Chorba is a man's soup, and women
love it. Who wouldn't? It gives such life-giving energy to everyone.
Post by unknown
Post by Zhivko Apostolovski
It's easy enough to make: Wash the tripe and boil it then simmer it with
salt, garlic and black pepper; add a cup of hot broth spoonful by spoonful
into a bowl of two beaten eggs, some lemon juice and do this slowly so the
mix doesn't curdle; add a cup of light cream into the mix and then pour the
whole thing back into the pot stirring all the while. Of course, while the
tripe is simmering you can add whatever vegetables you wish. To dress it up
sprinkle the top with whatever happens to be around like some chopped green
onions or leeks, some chives or some parsley. Voila! There you have it, "CHO
RBA".
Post by unknown
Post by Zhivko Apostolovski
Other countries might have different names for it. Certainly Chorba does
not have an international reputation. But if it were advertised widely
enough, given some publicity, show famous movie stars eating it in a movie,
give it an eye catching name, why it could become as famous as anything. It
could become as famous as "Zorba The Greek" and known the world over. It
might even become popular. But it would still be Chorba as we know it.
Post by unknown
Post by Zhivko Apostolovski
But enough about soup. Let's change the subject.
Changing Names
People sometimes change their names, especially when their original names
are not socially or politically acceptable. There was a lot of name,
changing in our part of the world. Common Macedonian names were transformed
slightly so that they would appear to sound and look more Greek, or more
Serbian or more Bulgarian. It all depended on which one of the surrounding
nations had occupied which part of Macedonia after 1913. So totally did the
neighbours divide up Macedonia, that there was no Macedonia left. Although
Macedonia appeared on maps for thousands of years it very suddenly vanished.
But it continued to exist in history, in people's minds and in people's
hearts. In the long run these are the most important places.
Post by unknown
Post by Zhivko Apostolovski
The Macedonian people were still there, those who hadn't emigrated and
spread throughout the world. But the Macedonians who remained were fearful,
and with good reason, to call themselves Macedonians or to use their
historic names.
Post by unknown
Post by Zhivko Apostolovski
The skies were to darken even further for the Macedonians in Greece. As
most Macedonians know and as the world is slowly learning, in and around
1928 the Greek government began to change all Macedonian village names to
Greek names. And they did that for the mountain ranges and for the rivers.
Thousands of years of history were wiped out with a pen for the government
wanted the territory to 'look' like Greece. For example, the village where
my grandfather Naumche was born, Oshchima, probably meaning 'there is still
more' was changed to Trigona, Greek for 'Three Corners'. It was a new name
plucked out of the air! Not very imaginative either, but the significance of
the change was enormous.
Post by unknown
Post by Zhivko Apostolovski
Seeing which way the political boundaries had shifted, watching how
historic place names were being changed all around them, seeing how the
Greek language was being pushed throughout the schools, the people realized
quickly enough that their whole way of life at the dominant political level
had shifted and changed. Many frightened people for honest reasons of
survival did a quick make-up job on their own names as well.
Post by unknown
Post by Zhivko Apostolovski
Abracadabra! Greeks seemed to rise up everywhere where only Macedonians
had lived for many, many centuries. Many people fled, those who could, to
surrounding countries, and to Canada, the U.S.A. and to Australia and
elsewhere. But those who could not escape began TO DISGUISE THEMSELVES for
protection from the government under new, Greek-sounding names.
Post by unknown
Post by Zhivko Apostolovski
Survival, survival, stoic survival is the strength of peasants. Not only
survival against the chance devastations of weather, storms, floods, but
survival in the face of being shot dead by the politicos and their armies.
Post by unknown
Post by Zhivko Apostolovski
The problem for the people that remained is easy enough to understand and
to accept. They were given no real choice. Change your name or suffer the
consequences. The choice was really change your name or die! One can almost
hear the old folk speaking among themselves: "What if we change our names,
change the sound a little, change one or two letters on a piece of paper?
What does it matter if they will only let us live? There is nothing to it!
What's in a name? It is food we need in our bellies, food in our children's
bellies, food for our cattle and animals. It doesn't matter what name you
call it, serve up the, "Chorba"! We can at least get our tongues around
that, get some food into our bellies so that our families can live. We'll
manage somehow to get our tongues around the new language, the new names
later. SURVIVE FIRST!"
Post by unknown
Post by Zhivko Apostolovski
I doubt if any one of them ever forgot their real historic family names.
How could they? The reality was that the Greeks had captured the land, the
people, the stage on which life is played. The children were taught to play
in Greek, to speak in Greek, to read in Greek. Like in classic Greek
theatre, a mask had to be worn.
Post by unknown
Post by Zhivko Apostolovski
And the Greek government could say, "See they have Greek Masks, they
speak Greek, there are no Macedonians here". Sadly, oh so sadly, the Greek
Orthodox Church also played a role like an attendant lord, sacrificing and
serving up one of the oldest Christian people to political masters.
Post by unknown
Post by Zhivko Apostolovski
The Drama Continues
If you have not already met with him, allow me to introduce a real life
historic character on to the stage. George Zorba. He is the real person on
whom the novel and movie, "Zorba The Greek" is based. This is where the soup
thickens, and the plot unfurls.
Post by unknown
Post by Zhivko Apostolovski
He was born in 1865, in a Macedonian village (now called Kolindros) about
25 miles from Salonika. Curiously, Dedo Naumche was born a few years later
only about 80 miles to the northwest as the stork flies from where Zorba was
born. That whole area was under the occupation of the Turks until 1912. Life
for poor Macedonian peasants was probably not too much different from one
small village to the next. Clearly Zorba was not born a Greek citizen. And
from his name it is fairly certain that he was not a Turk. What was he?
Post by unknown
Post by Zhivko Apostolovski
In a fascinating article, "Searching for the Real Zorba" written by Alan
Linn and published in the Canadian MD magazine, the author doesn't ask or
answer the question of Zorba's ethnic identity. The article gives an
historic account of the real Zorba; how Zorba's father quarrelled with a
Turk and fled his village, travelled south into Greece taking his family
with him where George Zorba grew up; how his mother died when he was 19
years old; how his father retired to a monastery at Mt. Athos; and how
Zorba, penniless, began to make his way back to his father's village. From
these facts it looks as though he wanted to go back to where he was born,
where his roots were, where he must have felt he belonged, and where perhaps
some relatives still survived.
Post by unknown
Post by Zhivko Apostolovski
We are told that he worked as a herdsman, tending sheep and goats, as a
woodcutter, as a digger in a mine, as a pedlar, a blacksmith, a labourer, a
smuggler, beggar and musician. He was a talented survivor by all accounts.
Post by unknown
Post by Zhivko Apostolovski
In 1912 he "joined the fighting". But from the article we do not learn
who he was fighting with, against whom, or where. One biographer apparently
describes him as burning and pillaging "Bulgarian Villages." Where? Where
were these "Bulgarian Villages"? In Bulgaria? This was a war against the
Turks wasn't it? What was going on?
Post by unknown
Post by Zhivko Apostolovski
If we look to the novel we learn that Zorba fought in the mountains of
Macedonia with Pavlos Melas, a Greek Officer, who distinguished himself in
the war against the Bulgarian 'Comitadjic' or guerilla fighters. In the
novel Zorba describes how he cut the throat of a priest, a Bulgarian
comitadji. From this information taken by itself one might prematurely
conclude that Zorba had become politically Greek. But follow, the story
further to see what Zorba does. A few days later, Zorba says he encountered
five little children dressed in black, barefoot, begging, three girls and
two boys, the oldest ten years old and the youngest still a baby. On
learning that it was the children's father that he had killed, he says tears
came to his eyes, and "the earth spun like a millstone." He took his purse
and gave the children all the Turkish money and gold he had and all his
supplies, and then he tore up the Saint Sophia medal he had embroidered with
the hairs of his own head and threw it away and
Post by unknown
Post by Zhivko Apostolovski
ran. He says he rescued himself from the ideas of country, the Church,
and money, all at once. He said "he used to" think of men as Greeks, or
Bulgars or Turks and burned villages, cut throats, robbed and raped women,
but he calls himself "a swine" for having done so. He says to himself, "To
hell with you right away, you ass." He denounces and gives up all ideas of
country, of nationalism and says, "...But I am delivered from all that. God
be praised! it's finished for me!" As indeed, in his day, was Macedonia
finished.
Post by unknown
Post by Zhivko Apostolovski
Zorba was ashamed and hated himself for the part he had taken in the war,
and the killings. One wonders, had the real George Zorba become a pacifist?
Had he reverted to becoming a peasant without a country and hating the very
idea of country because of what had happened to him? Had he become
apolitical as well?
Post by unknown
Post by Zhivko Apostolovski
From that part of the book what seems to remain is a deep sorrow and
compassion for his fellow man regardless of their nationality.
Post by unknown
Post by Zhivko Apostolovski
Let us return here to the historic facts of George Zorba's life. After
fighting against the Turks in the war of 1912, he retreated to the monastery
at Mt. Athos like his father before him but he could not stand the place.
Shortly thereafter he met the author-poet Nikos Kazantzakis and together
they planned their adventure to develop a mine. This project was quite
simply a hoax, a sham to avoid conscription into the Greek army in the war
of 1914-1918 as apparently mineworkers were exempted from military service.
The mine had a timely collapse in 1918 when the war ended.
Post by unknown
Post by Zhivko Apostolovski
Apparently George Zorba and Kazantzakis next met on a trip to Russia that
Kazantzakis had organized to "rescue Greeks fleeing Bolshevism". That too
sounds very strange. The two men stayed in a hotel housing refugee dancing
girls and Zorba returned back to Greece with three beautiful Russian women.
None of that sounds as if he rescued political dissenters or heavyweights.
Post by unknown
Post by Zhivko Apostolovski
George Zorba drifted north into what is now Yugoslavia and settled in a
village a few miles from Skopje. For almost the last twenty years of his
life the historic George Zorba lived in the centre of the Macedonian
countryside until he died at about the age of 77 in 1942.
Post by unknown
Post by Zhivko Apostolovski
A magnificent soup can move the taste buds in all kinds of directions and
an open mind can move around just as easily. Why, as a middle-aged man in
his late 50's, would Zorba move north into the Macedonian heartland? If he
were Greek, why wouldn't he have moved south and lived anywhere in Greece?
Having deserted the Greek cause in 1912 in the war against the Turks, was he
afraid for his life? Was he choosing to spend his last years among a strange
people and culture, or was he going to live with the people he knew, with
the people with whom he felt closest? Would he speak Greek in a Macedonian
village, or would he speak Macedonian? Was he a Greek among Macedonians, or
was he... a MACEDONIAN?
Post by unknown
Post by Zhivko Apostolovski
Changing the Name of the Novel
The book was written by Kazantzakis and published in Greek in 1946 during
the civil war between Macedonians and Greeks. The original title was "The
Life and Times of Alexe Zormpa". Zormpa? How peculiar? But you did notice
that the book originally was not called "Zorba The Greek".
Post by unknown
Post by Zhivko Apostolovski
When the book was first translated into English in 1952 the title of the
book was changed to "Zorba The Greek." Why? And it was under the new name
that the movie was made in 1964 that further helped to make the character of
Zorba world famous. It is because of the new English title of the book and
the movie that the whole world has been led astray as to the real ethnic and
national identity of the legendary character. The world has come to think of
Zorba as Greek, but is he?
Post by unknown
Post by Zhivko Apostolovski
A Close Reading of the Novel: Great Truths Revealed
There is no better evidence as to the ethnic and national identity of
Zorba than the text of Kazantzakis' book itself.
Post by unknown
Post by Zhivko Apostolovski
When the main character in the book first meets Kazantzakis, but before
he reveals his name he offers to work for the author as a cook. He says, "I
can make soups you've never heard of, or thought of." That is Kazantzakis
dropping the first clue about the name, Zorba as Chorba in Macedonian.
Post by unknown
Post by Zhivko Apostolovski
When asked his name the character replies as , follows: "Alexis Zorba.
Sometimes they call me Baker's Shovel because I'm so lanky and my head is
flattened like a griddlecake. Or else I'm called Passa Tempo because there
was a time when I hawked roast pumpkin seeds. They call me Mildew too,
because wherever I go, they say I get up to my tricks. Everything goes to
the dogs. I have other nicknames as well, but we'll leave them for another
time..."
Post by unknown
Post by Zhivko Apostolovski
Look now! As soon as we meet Zorba we find out he had many names! What is
truly fascinating is how the nicknames he gives show a progression of decay,
from a name associated with baking fresh bread, then the passing of time,
and then mildew when bread turns bad and can't be eaten. What kind of tricks
is Kazantzakis talking about? Is it tricks with names? Is that a clue from
Kazantzakis to look out for word tricks?
Post by unknown
Post by Zhivko Apostolovski
Kazantzakis provides a further clue in the book when he writes further
on, "Everything in this world has a hidden meaning ... men, animals, trees,
stars ... (and notice that last one) ... it is only years later, too late,
that you understand." Kazantzakis tells us that there are hidden meanings
and to look further.
Post by unknown
Post by Zhivko Apostolovski
Let's look closer. The author has Zorba describe Macedonia. Now notice
that in another separate paragraph he has Zorba speak about Greece, Bulgaria
and Constantinople. Why does he place these in separate paragraphs you might
wonder? Kazantzakis was a master writer, a master craftsman, and perhaps the
greatest writer that Greece has produced in this century. It is not simply
chance that he makes that separation.
Post by unknown
Post by Zhivko Apostolovski
Then there is the greatest revelation about Zorba. In the book, Zorba,
talking about himself says,
Post by unknown
Post by Zhivko Apostolovski
"O wonderful Slav, may you live a thousand years!"
Are Greeks Slavs? Do they ever speak of themselves as being Slavs?
Macedonians are Slavs, in an ethnic sense and a religious sense.
Post by unknown
Post by Zhivko Apostolovski
In the novel, Zorba sings Macedonian songs, a synthesis of "poetry, music
and thought" as Kazantzakis describes them. Do you remember Zorba singing
Macedonian songs in the movie? No, neither do I. Kazantzakis spoke Greek. He
knew the difference between a Greek song and a Macedonian song. He did not
use the name Macedonian to mean Greek. Kazantzakis was nobody's fool.
Post by unknown
Post by Zhivko Apostolovski
The author even asks Zorba to sing a song, "A Macedonian Song of your own
country, Zorba". Oh mark Kazantzakis words well!
Post by unknown
Post by Zhivko Apostolovski
To mark the difference clearly, at another point Kazantzakis writes, "And
don't forget, Zorba is a foreigner, a Macedonian, and it is the greatest
disgrace we Cretans can bring on ourselves to raise a hand against a guest
in our country...
Post by unknown
Post by Zhivko Apostolovski
Perhaps the saddest and most telling evidence of all about the
distortions to Zorba's name is a letter Zorba writes from Romania that he
signs, "Alexis Zorbescu". Later he also sends Kazantzakis a card, a
postcard, from Serbia that is signed, "Alexis Zorbic". The last time
Kazantzakis hears about his friend is a letter that he received from a
schoolmaster in Skopje telling him of the death of Alexis Zorba.
Post by unknown
Post by Zhivko Apostolovski
Kazantzakis Respect for Zorba
For Kazantzakis, Zorba was a hero, and he placed him along side of Homer,
Nietzche and Bergson whom he called "the bodyguards of the Odyssey", men who
protect and develop man's freedom to think in the progression of human
history. He elevated Zorba to the very pinnacle of human evolution, human
achievement.
Post by unknown
Post by Zhivko Apostolovski
Kazantzakis believed that what Zorba was offering in his understanding
and philosophy of living was a new Decalogue, nothing less than a new set of
Ten Commandments for man in this world. He placed Zorba, in the illustrious
company with Christ, Dante, Buddha, El Greco and others. It is astonishing,
but here we have Kazantzakis, one of the great intellectuals of our age, a
one-time Education Minister in the Greek Government, a writer who almost won
the Nobel Prize for Literature, placing an ordinary Macedonian among the
world's greatest philosophers, poets, painters, and spiritual leaders.
Amazing!
Post by unknown
Post by Zhivko Apostolovski
That is a kind of respect that Macedonians seldom receive openly and
publicly. It is also the kind of respect we must learn to give towards
ourselves and our history.
Post by unknown
Post by Zhivko Apostolovski
Kazantzakis knew our history. In the preface to the English translation
of his 'Alexander the Great', the translator, Theodora Vasilis, writes,
"Zorba, the most popular of his (Kazantzakis') creations was fashioned in
the image of the crafty Odysseus." If Odysseus was crafty and cunning we
must open both of our eyes! Why did Kazantzakis reject the name 'George' and
choose the name 'Alexis'? Was it because he simply liked the sound of the
name and pulled it out of a hat? Or was Kazantzakis the writer acting as a
'koom', as a godfather and deliberately chose the name 'Alexis'? Did he do
this so that the name would ring a bell of remembrance in our minds, a name
associated with somebody? Who? What name? Very likely to remind us of
Alexander the Great, the Macedonian who struggled to bring the whole world
together, east and west.
Alexander the Great - Zorba the Greek. If we search for the meaning of names
we find Alexis means 'to ward off, keep off, protect'. Was the book about
Zorba meant to be more than just a novel but a way of speaking to the world
about the Macedonian Spirit?
Post by unknown
Post by Zhivko Apostolovski
Consider the initials of Kazantzakis' hero, 'A.Z.' - like the beginning
and the end of the alphabet that Kazantzakis loved so much. And there too is
the mysterious biblical "alpha and omega".
Post by unknown
Post by Zhivko Apostolovski
Was Kazantzakis hiding the true identity of his hero and sending forth a
hidden message to the world in his hero's name! Was he doing what Zorba
himself had done, changing a letter here and there as he did Romania and
Serbia.
Post by unknown
Post by Zhivko Apostolovski
It was in 1952, three years after the civil war between the Greeks and
Macedonians ended, that the book was translated into English with the new
title, "Zorba The Greek". Kazantzakis was still alive and surely he knew of
the translation. Surely he approved of the name and title to the book, and
the question that arises is why did he do it? Why, if Kazantzakis was
clearly giving the message throughout his book that Zorba was a Macedonian,
with his own country, a Slav who should live for a thousand years, a man
whom he admits he loved dearly in his life and for whom he had such respect
and regard -- why would he allow the translation into English to be "Zorba
The Greek"? What a puzzle?
Post by unknown
Post by Zhivko Apostolovski
Kazantzakis the Classic Scholar
Kazantzakis knew well enough that English is one of the great
international world languages. No doubt he wanted his ideas and philosophy
and those of Zorba to spread around the world. He even refers to Zorba as
the new Sinbad the Sailor and he clearly must have had a world audience in
mind.
Post by unknown
Post by Zhivko Apostolovski
One moment then! Was adding the words "The Greek" some kind of a sham, a
trick, a disguise? Was this a hoax, just like their "mining operation"
during the war? In the book itself in a dozen different ways he invites the
reader to dig, dig, dig for the truth about his much-beloved character.
Post by unknown
Post by Zhivko Apostolovski
Was the new English title and translation of his book meant to be a mask
for Zorba/ Chorba? Was "Zorba" intended to go around the world, disguised as
"The Greek", fashioned and crafted to become world famous, and irony of
ironies, in the end to reveal himself and to confront and confound the Greek
politicians for their conduct towards all Macedonians. Is that what he was
letting us know right at the beginning of the book when he was talking about
names and wrote, "I get up to my tricks, Everything goes to the dogs?"
Post by unknown
Post by Zhivko Apostolovski
Observe the classic tradition in story, poetry, songs. In the classic
epic songs of Homer, and in the epic songs in the Slavic oral tradition a
hero frequently travels in disguise for the real purpose of making a rescue.
When there is a disguise there must eventually be a recognition when the
disguise is stripped away. In these recognition scenes, almost like a signal
there would always be present at the moment of recognition a song or a
musical instrument.
Post by unknown
Post by Zhivko Apostolovski
What Do We Find in the Novel?
True to classic tradition, when Zorba reveals himself as a Slav, a
Macedonian, he sings and plays the santuri.
Post by unknown
Post by Zhivko Apostolovski
Who can doubt that Kazantzakis, whose greatest work was The Odyssey, A
Modern Sequel, knew of these themes, these traditions of disguise and
rescue.
Post by unknown
Post by Zhivko Apostolovski
Open Letter to Kazantzakis
"Nikos! Kazantzakis! I cry out to you in the beyond! I may be wrong about
what you have written, what you intended, but I may be right? Throughout
your work you called on the human spirit to dare, to look behind the masks
of everything as you had spent your life doing. It is still worth doing
Nikos!"
Post by unknown
Post by Zhivko Apostolovski
"I do not think that you meant to cast any insult on the memory of your
friend who was dead by misrepresenting him around the world. I do think that
you may have been trying to provide him with a kind of peasant's revenge
after his death. Did you not, by writing, preserve and rescue for the world
that Macedonian whom you had come to know and admire and respect. You
rescued him from an almost total oblivion and through your spirit
transformed the man into the undying literature of Freedom."
Post by unknown
Post by Zhivko Apostolovski
"Da ti ye arliya, Nikos"
"Nikos, is it time now to take away the disguise of "The Greek", from
your friend George Zorba? What a wonderfully crafted mask Nikos, worthy of
Odysseus himself. What a comic mask! And beneath that what, the mask of
tragedy, the tragedy of Macedonians in Greece?"
Post by unknown
Post by Zhivko Apostolovski
"But you wouldn't want to leave us with another mask, one of comedy and
one of tragedy would you? Where would the rescue and the resurrection be?
Didn't you intend that Zorba should hold up and represent, not only the
national ethnic identity of man, but much, much, more than that, the classic
universal human craving for the ideal of freedom for the body of man."
Post by unknown
Post by Zhivko Apostolovski
"And didn't you Nikos want the world to know that you and Zorba were the
best of friends on a personal level, on a human level, Macedonian and Greek.
Weren't you describing a universal human brotherhood of work and struggle
together for a kind of freedom for everyone with a decent respect for each
other. And wasn't it above all petty politics? Wasn't it a message for
politicians too? And wasn't one of the great messages that you wanted any
reader to take from your story, your book, "Peace ... for the sake of the
children?"
Post by unknown
Post by Zhivko Apostolovski
Nikos Kazantzakis died in Frieburg, Germany, on October 26th, 1957. His
body was taken to Athens to lie in state. The Archbishop of Athens of the
Greek Orthodox Church refused to permit the national honour or to celebrate
a funeral mass for him. Kazantzakis name and the name of his hero
Zorba/Chorba live on around the world and will to the end of time. I don't
remember the name of the Archbishop.
Post by unknown
Post by Zhivko Apostolovski
Conclusion
"Zorba the Greek" has been a great international commercial success and a
lot of people have been able to cat steak because of it. But steak is a
passing thing, and TRUTH STICKS.
Post by unknown
Post by Zhivko Apostolovski
The evidence from George Zorba's life and from the novel clearly points
to the conclusion that Zorba the Greek is in truth, Chorba the Macedonian.
Post by unknown
Post by Zhivko Apostolovski
Kazantzakis, a one-time Minister of Education in the government of
Greece, and perhaps the greatest Greek writer of this century, hails and
affirms a Macedonian and places him among the world's leaders.
Post by unknown
Post by Zhivko Apostolovski
By creating a mask, by writing an excellent novel, by contributing to the
great literature of the world, Kazantzakis hid a great Macedonian, to
protect and preserve him.
Post by unknown
Post by Zhivko Apostolovski
He saved, not the man Zorba/ Chorba, but even more important, the memory,
the image, the philosophy, the life-view and the world-view of the
Macedonian mind alive in the world.
Post by unknown
Post by Zhivko Apostolovski
The marvelous achievement of Kazantzakis is that he created an indelible
universal statement of Freedom and Human Rights with the essential message
of "Long Live the Macedonians".
Post by unknown
Post by Zhivko Apostolovski
And, Kazantzakis did that by beginning with one word SOUP. CHORBA!
June R Harton
2005-02-04 03:44:40 UTC
Permalink
"Zhivko Apostolovski" <***@bigpond.net.au> wrote in message news:X0LHd.125824$***@news-server.bigpond.net.au...

Siully, Bulgar.

Bulgar, you were born a Bulgar and you have no choice, you will also
will die as one.

And, Bulgar, what did I tell you about hiding from truth?

In a letter to Prof. Marin Drinov of May 25, 1888 Kuzman Shapkarev writes:
"But even stranger is the name Macedonians, which was imposed on us only 10
to 15 years ago by outsiders, and not as something by our own
intellectuals... Yet the people in Macedonia know nothing of that ancient
name, reintroduced today with a cunning aim on the one hand and a stupid one
on the other. They know the older word: "Bugari", although mispronounced:
they have even adopted it as peculiarly theirs, inapplicable to other
Bulgarians. You can find more about this in the introduction to the booklets
I am sending you. They call their own Macedono-Bulgarian dialect the
"Bugarski language", while the rest of the Bulgarian dialects they refer to
as the "Shopski language". (Makedonski pregled, IX, 2, 1934, p. 55; the
original letter is kept in the Marin Drinov Museum in Sofia, and it is
available for examination and study)
Here is the text in the original:

"No pochudno e imeto Makedonci, koeto naskoro, edvay predi 10-15 godini, ni
natrapiha i to otvqn, a ne kakto nyakoi mislyat ot samata nasha
inteligenciya... Narodqt obache v Makedoniya ne znae nishto za tova
arhaichesko, a dnes, s lukava cel ot edna strana, s glupeshka ot druga,
podnoveno prozvishte; toy si znae postaroto: Bugari, makar i nepravilno
proiznasyano, daje osvoyava si go kato sobstveno i preimushtestveno svoe,
nejeli za drugite Bqlgari. Za tova shte vidite i v predgovora na izpratenite
mi knijici. Toy naricha Bugarski ezik svoeto Makaedono-bqlgarsko narechie,
kogato drugite bqlgarski narechiya naricha Shopski."


And here:


Reference source for Gotse Delchev's numerous utterings of 'We are
Bulgarians'......

http://www.ucc.ie/staff/jprodr/macedonia/macmodnat2.html

Even Gotse Delchev, the famous Macedonian revolutionary leader, whose nom de
guerre was Ahil (Achilles), refers to "the Slavs of Macedonia as
'Bulgarians' in an offhanded manner without seeming to indicate that such a
designation was a point of contention" (Perry 1988:23).
In his correspondence Gotse Delchev often states clearly and simply, "We are
Bulgarians" (MacDermott 1978:192,273).


And here:


For fair use only.

http://members.tripod.com/~dimobetchev/documents/ilinden.htm

" Considering the critical and terrible situation that the Bulgarian
population of the Bitola Vilayet found itself in and following the ravages
and cruelties done by the Turkish troops and irregulars, ... considering
the fact that everything Bulgarian runs the risk of perishing and
disappearing without a trace because of violence, hunger, and the upcoming
misery, the Head Quarters finds it to be its obligation to draw the
attention of the respected Bulgarian government to the pernicious
consequences vis-a-vis the Bulgarian nation, in case the latter does not
fulfill its duty towards its brethren of race here in an imposing fashion
which is necessary by virtue of the present ordeal for the common Bulgarian
Fatherland...

...Being in command of our people's movement, we appeal to you on behalf of
the enslaved Bulgarian to help him in the most effective way - by waging
war.We believe that the response of the people in free Bulgaria will be the
same.

... No bulgarian school is opened, neither will it be opened... Nobody
thinks of education when he is outlawed by the state because he bears the
name Bulgar...


Waiting for your patriotic intervention, we are pleased to inform you that
we have in our disposition the armed forces we have spared by now.

The Head Quarters of the Ilinden Uprising"

Damian GRUEV, Boris SARAFOV, Atanas LOZANTCHEV

This memorandum was handed to Dr.Kozhuharov, the Bulgarian consul in Bitola,

and transmitted by him to the government in Sofia with report N441 from
September 17th, 1903. "

And here:


http://www.bulgaria.com/VMRO/document.htm

http://www.bulgaria.com/VMRO/documen1.htm

http://www.bulgaria.com/VMRO/documen2.htm

http://www.bulgaria.com/VMRO/documen3.htm

http://www.bulgaria.com/VMRO/drzhava.htm

http://www.bulgaria.com/VMRO/exarchy.htm

http://w3.tyenet.com/kozlich/mapovska4a.htm

And finally here

http://www.bulgaria.com/VMRO/bitola06.htm

http://www.historymuseum.org/items.php3?nid=199&name=ochrid



from: Spirit of Truth

(using June's e-mail to communicate to you)!
Costica Gogule KOKU !
2005-02-04 14:23:28 UTC
Permalink
Hey Ms "Spirit out of a bottle" Hardon !

I note that you've been dissing Macedonia for years now........

WELL Guess what ?

YOU LOST...... BITCH !

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/mk.html

*ROTFFLMFAOAY*

"The Republic of Macedonia" is recognised by over 100 nations, LOSER !

Mewhahahaahahahahahahahahaaaaaaaaarrr

Will you ever get over it, I wonder ?


Hmmmmmm I doubt it very much

PWNage !
Peters I.W
2005-02-04 19:57:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Costica Gogule KOKU !
Hey Ms "Spirit out of a bottle" Hardon !
I note that you've been dissing Macedonia for years now........
WELL Guess what ?
YOU LOST...... BITCH !
http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/mk.html
*ROTFFLMFAOAY*
"The Republic of Macedonia" is recognised by over 100 nations, LOSER !
Mewhahahaahahahahahahahahaaaaaaaaarrr
Will you ever get over it, I wonder ?
Hmmmmmm I doubt it very much
PWNage !
STFUST clown,did you bury your mother yet?
--
"I try to think.. but nothing happens."
Sean
I tried to use my mind...big mistake
TRNC-Retard of Cyprus
I used to have a mind...have you seen it
Mark Rivers
Costica Gogule KOKU !
2005-02-05 15:12:18 UTC
Permalink
Dear GAYson

My dear mother, ( May GOD [yeah GOD koku not G_d you bent
Romaneshtijidanimuist] rest her merry soul ) was cremated to secure her
mortal remains from perverted FILTH like you, why do you enquire ?

Do you wish to make confessions about your addiction to NECROPHILLIA ?

*ROTFFLMFAOAY*

PWNT !
Jason K. Lambrou
2005-02-05 15:06:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Costica Gogule KOKU !
Dear GAYson
My dear mother, ( May GOD [yeah GOD koku not G_d you bent
Romaneshtijidanimuist] rest her merry soul ) was cremated to secure her
mortal remains from perverted FILTH like you, why do you enquire ?
Do you wish to make confessions about your addiction to NECROPHILLIA ?
*ROTFFLMFAOAY*
PWNT !
There is nothing lower in the world than a Turk :-( using a Greek first
name
and an Armenian last name. And a Turk homo at that mouhahahahahaha
Gregory is a GREEK name mouhahahahahahahahahahahaha you stupid Turk
you fell for it ,mouhahahahahahahahahaha, you don't see a Greek using Mehmet
do you, you fucking low life hamam boy. Now go get a new ID, I guess you
sucked
some Greek's cock named Gregory :-P .Hahahahahahahahahahahha, A TURK
using a Greek name,
don't you have any decency left homo scumbag. Gregory
mouhahahahahahahahahaha
mouhahahahahahahahahahahahhahaahah
--
I don't worry about Turks,but history has taught
me to be cautious with them...GJK
Costica Gogule KOKU !
2005-02-05 16:05:19 UTC
Permalink
GAYson is a Greek name

It means "Son of a shirt lifter

LAME-BREW is a Grik name too, it means "Sad boring old fart"
Jason K. Lambrou
2005-02-05 17:53:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Costica Gogule KOKU !
GAYson is a Greek name
It means "Son of a shirt lifter
LAME-BREW is a Grik name too, it means "Sad boring old fart"
SEAN'S family troubles:This is what Sean is saying
Today my baby girl's 18th birthdayI be so glad that this be my last child
support payment! Month after month, year after year, all those damn
payments!
So I call my baby girl, LaFATima, to come to my house, and when she get
there, I say, "Baby girl,
I want you to take this check over to yo momma house and tell her this
be the last check
she ever be gettin'from me, and I want you to come back and tell me the
expression that's on yo mama's face."
So my baby girl she take the check over to her.
I be anxious to hear what she say and what she look like.
Baby girl walk through the door, I say, "Now what yo momma say 'bout that?"
She say to tell you that "you aint my daddy.........and watch the
expression on yo face....."

X-Complaints-To: groups-***@google.com
(Sean's IP Carrier)
--
I don't worry about Turks*,because they are pillow biters
and love to receive a good anal pounding from a Kurd.
Mustaffa K.J.

*Mark Rivers,Gregory the Turk?,Sean O'Kilfoyle,Retard TRNC
Dorian West
2005-02-05 18:26:47 UTC
Permalink
I will enjoy England when it all comes to a boil. Scum sucking pigs will be
cleansed and news of it will silence ALL SCUM SUCKING PIGS who are
intrinsically cowards anyway - torturers, woman-bashers and paedophiles.
There's only 1 place for them!
Post by Costica Gogule KOKU !
GAYson is a Greek name
It means "Son of a shirt lifter
LAME-BREW is a Grik name too, it means "Sad boring old fart"
Jason K. Lambrou
2005-02-05 18:58:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dorian West
I will enjoy England when it all comes to a boil. Scum sucking pigs will be
cleansed and news of it will silence ALL SCUM SUCKING PIGS who are
intrinsically cowards anyway - torturers, woman-bashers and paedophiles.
There's only 1 place for them!
Post by Costica Gogule KOKU !
GAYson is a Greek name
It means "Son of a shirt lifter
LAME-BREW is a Grik name too, it means "Sad boring old fart"
"THAT'S RIGHT, ILLINDEN. SINCE WE ARE THE TRUE HELLENES, AND I AM
PERSONALLY OFFENDED THAT A BUNCH OF REFUSE FROM TURKEY AND AFRICA
WOULD CALL THEMSELVES BY OUR RIGHTFUL NAME.
--
Regards,
President George W. Bush
The White House
Washington, DC
United States of America"
Did you read the post from Dirty Harry I posted above.Dr.Retzov :-[ is
too anxious to call me and you
racists but he is nice and chummy with the Skopians.Do you think what I
think about the Dr.

I wish I could join you in the U.K. for some "hunting ;-) ". It is nice
to have a name for our prey!!!!!
--
I don't worry about Turks*,because they are pillow biters
and love to receive a good anal pounding from a Kurd.
Mustaffa K.J.

*Mark Rivers,Gregory the Turk?,Sean O'Kilfoyle,Retard TRNC
Dorian West
2005-02-06 17:14:30 UTC
Permalink
The Doctor is a commie and a traitor and he might not be Greek at all but a Slav or Turk that got expelled from Greece. He is so nice to the mad-dog Slavs it's beyond a joke. He seems to think Usenet is where the fight will be won and lost when it is only a forum for an exchange of views. Here we have 1st hand looks at the unhidden face of the MongolSlave and it's not pretty. Retzios SHOULD defend both you and me when a Slavs pastes us, but he doesn't.


Ah yes, England! Tally ho! A hunting we will go, a hunting we will go, heigh ho the dairy-o, a hunting we will go. I just love hunting wild Turkey (pun intended).
"Jason K. Lambrou" <***@nyc.rr.com> wrote in message news:QH8Nd.72505$***@twister.nyc.rr.com...
Dorian West wrote:
I will enjoy England when it all comes to a boil. Scum sucking pigs will be
cleansed and news of it will silence ALL SCUM SUCKING PIGS who are
intrinsically cowards anyway - torturers, woman-bashers and paedophiles.
There's only 1 place for them!

"Costica Gogule KOKU !" <***@easy.com> wrote in message news:***@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
GAYson is a Greek name

It means "Son of a shirt lifter

LAME-BREW is a Grik name too, it means "Sad boring old fart"


"THAT'S RIGHT, ILLINDEN. SINCE WE ARE THE TRUE HELLENES, AND I AM PERSONALLY OFFENDED THAT A BUNCH OF REFUSE FROM TURKEY AND AFRICA WOULD CALL THEMSELVES BY OUR RIGHTFUL NAME.
--
Regards,

President George W. Bush
The White House
Washington, DC
United States of America"

Did you read the post from Dirty Harry I posted above.Dr.Retzov :-[ is too anxious to call me and you
racists but he is nice and chummy with the Skopians.Do you think what I think about the Dr.

I wish I could join you in the U.K. for some "hunting ;-) ". It is nice
to have a name for our prey!!!!!
--
I don't worry about Turks*,because they are pillow biters
and love to receive a good anal pounding from a Kurd.
Mustaffa K.J.

*Mark Rivers,Gregory the Turk?,Sean O'Kilfoyle,Retard TRNC
Jason K. Lambrou
2005-02-06 18:07:16 UTC
Permalink
Dorian West wrote:



A few months he got caught when he said his news reader coun't read
Greek, which is a lie, since the post was written in Greek lish. It
turns out
he posted from two different IPs, and the first one was very quick to
give a negative answer.
Post by Dorian West
The Doctor is a commie and a traitor and he might not be Greek at all
but a Slav or Turk that got expelled from Greece. He is so nice to the
mad-dog Slavs it's beyond a joke. He seems to think Usenet is where
the fight will be won and lost when it is only a forum for an exchange
of views. Here we have 1st hand looks at the unhidden face of the
MongolSlave and it's not pretty. Retzios SHOULD defend both you and me
when a Slavs pastes us, but he doesn't.
Ah yes, England! Tally ho! A hunting we will go, a hunting we will go,
heigh ho the dairy-o, a hunting we will go. I just love hunting wild
Turkey (pun intended).
Post by Dorian West
I will enjoy England when it all comes to a boil. Scum sucking pigs will be
cleansed and news of it will silence ALL SCUM SUCKING PIGS who are
intrinsically cowards anyway - torturers, woman-bashers and paedophiles.
There's only 1 place for them!
Post by Costica Gogule KOKU !
GAYson is a Greek name
It means "Son of a shirt lifter
LAME-BREW is a Grik name too, it means "Sad boring old fart"
"THAT'S RIGHT, ILLINDEN. SINCE WE ARE THE TRUE HELLENES, AND I
AM PERSONALLY OFFENDED THAT A BUNCH OF REFUSE FROM TURKEY AND
AFRICA WOULD CALL THEMSELVES BY OUR RIGHTFUL NAME.
--
Regards,
President George W. Bush
The White House
Washington, DC
United States of America"
Did you read the post from Dirty Harry I posted above.Dr.Retzov
:-[ is too anxious to call me and you
racists but he is nice and chummy with the Skopians.Do you think
what I think about the Dr.
I wish I could join you in the U.K. for some "hunting ;-) ". It is nice
to have a name for our prey!!!!!
--
I don't worry about Turks*,because they are pillow biters
and love to receive a good anal pounding from a Kurd.
Mustaffa K.J.
*Mark Rivers,Gregory the Turk?,Sean O'Kilfoyle,Retard TRNC
--
?????? ?? ?? ??????????, ???? ?? ???????????
??? ?'???????????????? ??? ??????? ?? ???????.
Costica Gogule KOKU !
2005-02-06 21:18:21 UTC
Permalink
Wow !

GAYson and Doreen provide each other with mutual felatio

*ROTFFLOL*
Karl
2005-02-07 00:00:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Costica Gogule KOKU !
Wow !
GAYson and Doreen provide each other with mutual felatio
*ROTFFLOL*
So the old senile fool GAYSon has had some sucssess on the usenet afterall,
eh!

Well, this might be the WANNA-BE EUROPEAN and WANNA-BE GREEK Dorian's chance
to become a Greek afterall. Ain't he the luck one!

MWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

MWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAH
Dorian West
2005-02-07 14:23:16 UTC
Permalink
Come Euro summer you won't be able to fellate anything and I do mean thing,
you Mongol piece of sub-human trash.
Post by Costica Gogule KOKU !
Wow !
GAYson and Doreen provide each other with mutual felatio
*ROTFFLOL*
YAVRUKURT
2005-02-08 20:26:16 UTC
Permalink
How's your pet sheep Doreen ?

*LMFAOAY*


Baaaaaaah !

http://www.sci-sonic.com
Jason K. Lambrou
2005-02-08 20:23:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by YAVRUKURT
How's your pet sheep Doreen ?
*LMFAOAY*
Baaaaaaah !
http://www.sci-sonic.com
Nice to see the attendants let you out of your "room" for a little air.
--
I don't worry about Turks,but history has taught
me to be cautious with them...GJK
Ilinden
2005-02-09 00:00:01 UTC
Permalink
Lambrov do you thing the Macedonians in Aegean Macedonia will have
Macedonian schools?
Post by Jason K. Lambrou
Post by YAVRUKURT
How's your pet sheep Doreen ?
*LMFAOAY*
Baaaaaaah !
http://www.sci-sonic.com
Nice to see the attendants let you out of your "room" for a little air.
Dorian West
2005-02-09 08:03:09 UTC
Permalink
WHERE THE FUCK IS AEGEAN MACEDONIA BLOCK-HEAD SLAV?
Post by Ilinden
Lambrov do you thing the Macedonians in Aegean Macedonia will have
Macedonian schools?
YAVRUKURT
2005-02-10 23:09:38 UTC
Permalink
Here

http://www.sci-sonic.com/
Ilinden
2005-02-11 03:51:48 UTC
Permalink
Dorian Istok ,Aegean Macedonia is where that part was given to the
Ftcogians in 1913 than the Ftcogians in 1913 they changed that name from
Macedonia to New territory than Northern Greece and recently Macedonia
you are a loser tell me bre tikvar why the Ftcogians change our original
first and last names , suppressed the Macedonian language in 1936 I can
go on and on but you are a flummoxed Turkogrekos you do not comprehend
anything you are a buffoon from Australia.
Post by Dorian West
WHERE THE FUCK IS AEGEAN MACEDONIA BLOCK-HEAD SLAV?
Post by Ilinden
Lambrov do you thing the Macedonians in Aegean Macedonia will have
Macedonian schools?
Yannis the Macedonian
2005-02-11 17:21:11 UTC
Permalink
"Ilinden" <***@sympatico.ca> wrote...
Dorian Istok ,Aegean Macedonia is where that part was given to the
Ftcogians in 1913 than the Ftcogians in 1913 they changed that name from
Macedonia to New territory than Northern Greece and recently Macedonia you
are a loser tell me bre tikvar why the Ftcogians change our original first
and last names , suppressed the Macedonian language in 1936 I can go on and
on but you are a flummoxed Turkogrekos you do not comprehend anything you
are a buffoon from Australia.
==========================


My chum, what is Macedonian on you?? Why do you care so much about
Macedonians?
Istor
Macedonia, Greece

Yannis the Macedonian
2005-02-09 18:15:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ilinden
Lambrov do you thing the Macedonians in Aegean Macedonia will have
Macedonian schools?
Yes. About 2,500. There are SlavoSkopian pupils in those schools. Their
parents ask to learn and speak Macedonian. This is exactly what they have.
They learn and speak Macedonian, the known Greek dialect.
http://www.worldcampaign.net/forum/view.php?id=1248
Istor
Macedonia, Greece
Costica Gogule KOKU !
2005-02-04 14:21:33 UTC
Permalink
Hey Ms Hardon !

I note that you've been dissing Macedonia for years now........

Guess what ?

YOU LOST !

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/mk.html

*ROTFFLMFAOAY*

"The Republic of Macedonia" is recognised by over 100 nations, LOSER !

Mewhahahaahahahahahahahaharr

Will you ever get over it, I wonder ?

PWNage !
TJ. Snow
2005-02-04 15:17:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Costica Gogule KOKU !
Hey Ms Hardon !
I note that you've been dissing Macedonia for years now........
Guess what ?
YOU LOST !
http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/mk.html
*ROTFFLMFAOAY*
"The Republic of Macedonia" is recognised by over 100 nations, LOSER !
Mewhahahaahahahahahahahaharr
Will you ever get over it, I wonder ?
PWNage !
You are a moron
--
Turks like Sean are a disgrace and insult to the
human race.
Costica Gogule KOKU !
2005-02-05 15:08:08 UTC
Permalink
T J Snow ?

Mewharharharharharharhar

REALLY Mr GAYson K Lame-Brew !

I thought it was TJ HOOKER ?

*ROTFFLMFAOAY*

Let me see now.......SNOW......... slang for Cocaine ? or is it Heroin
?

Makes sense, NICE NEW SOCKPUPPET you senile old OAF !

Suits you !

*ROTFFLMFAOAY*
David Edenden
2005-01-20 02:36:35 UTC
Permalink
This is a very interesting article, but I think it is beside the point. I have read that Zorba's children were living in Belgrade at the time of the Bosnian war and had been lobbying to aquire Greek citizenship which Athens granted after considerable delay.

I am not sure why Athens delayed so long or why they had to lobby for what most people would assume would be automatic. I can guess, but I won't since I do not have the facts.

Mission:

Can some journalists in Macedonia track down these children of Zorba and interview them. Also, why not interview his relatives who may still live in his village. Is it a village where Macedonians have lived or do live today.

Lets get some facts and not put all of our energy in speculation.
"Zhivko Apostolovski" <***@bigpond.net.au> wrote in message news:IY5Hd.123201$***@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
A bit lenghty, but a self explanatory article.

Zorba the Greek Unmasked: Chorba the Macedonian

by Dr. Alex K. Gigeroff, Ph.D.

Originally published September, 1990

To make a good soup you have to collect the ingredients and cook it very slowly.

My Dedo Naumche was born in Macedonia way back about 1870. I never met him but I've heard lots about him. Sometimes I think about him. Apparently he really liked soup and I imagine that he enjoyed it ever since he was a child. He enjoyed soup as an experience and everything that went into making and eating it. He enjoyed the whole process. He loved having food in the house. He enjoyed the aroma of the dish as it bubbled and simmered slowly in the big pot that hung on a rack in the fireplace. And just as much, he loved that first taste, every mouthful and particularly the last spoonful.
Pres. George W. Bush
2005-01-20 05:51:17 UTC
Permalink
You guys are beyond contempt
ADR
Look who's talking.

--
Regards,

President George W. Bush
The White House
Washington, DC
United States of America
Zhivko Apostolovski
2005-01-20 09:45:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pres. George W. Bush
You guys are beyond contempt
ADR
Look who's talking.
Me thinks, an unrepentant, slimy GRKOMAN. :-)
Post by Pres. George W. Bush
--
Regards,
President George W. Bush
The White House
Washington, DC
United States of America
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