Discussion:
Ecstatic Greeks celebrate national team's gold in European basketball championship
(too old to reply)
Agamemnon
2005-09-27 21:23:16 UTC
Permalink
Ecstatic Greeks celebrate national team's gold in European basketball
championship

ATHENS, 27/9/2005 (ANA)

Ecstatic Greeks throughout the country were celebrating on the streets into
the early morning hours Monday over their national team's clinching of the
34th European men's basketball championship, defeating former champion
Germany 78-62 in the final late Sunday in Belgrade, bringing the Eurobasket
cup to Greece for the second time in 18 years.

Messages of congratulations poured in throughout the night from the
country's state and political leadership, as Greeks throughout the country,
in Cyprus, and in Greek communities abroad paraded through the streets
honking car horns, waving Greek flags and setting off fireworks,
celebrating the repeat of the men's national basketball team's 1987
triumph. Greece also reached the final in 1989.

Team coach Panayotis Yiannakis, who was a star player in the 1987 national
team that put Greek basketball at the top of Europe for the first time in
its history, told ANA immediately after the final that he couldn't believe
what was happening, that he felt as if he were dreaming.

President of the Republic Karolos Papoulias sent his warmest
congratulations to the national basketball team for its conquest of the
European championship, "which filled all of Greece with joy and pride".

Prime minister and culture minister Costas Karamanlis, in his message, said
that one year after the Athens 2004 Olympic Games and the Greek national
soccer team's clinching of the European soccer championship, the national
basketball team "which 18 years ago made all the Greeks proud, has once
again reached the highest peak of Europe".

Sports have once again proven itself to be a great national capital which
was everyone's duty to safeguard and reinforce even more, the prime
minister said.

Parliament president Anna Psarouda-Benaki sent warm congratulations for the
team's "triumph that fills us with enthusiasm and emotion".

"You deservedly attained the European top and gave our country another
great international sport distinction, making the Greeks proud. We
celebrate your great success with you," she said.

Alternate culture minister Fani Palli-Petralia congratulated the team and
their coach, saying that "the Greek spirit has spoken once again".

She said the team players had "faith, determination and cool-headedness",
and thus "the dream became reality".

Deputy culture minister for sports George Orfanos, who flew to Belgrade on
Sunday to cheer on the Greek team at the final, said that "Greece's
children have lifted us into the sky", and congratulated the players, their
coach, the Greek sports federation and all those who helped the team reach
the top.

Main opposition PASOK leader George Papandreou sent his heartfelt
congratulations, noting that when Greece displays confidence in its
strength, believes in its dream, is founded on principles and values and
the collective effort of individual talents, and has the backing of the
people, it always succeeds.

Coalition of the Left, Movements and Ecology (SYN) leader Alekos Alavanos
congratulated the players and the team's technical leadership for their
excellent effort, adding that it was the obligation of the State to take
advantage of this success in order to develop a mass sports movement and
not allow the further commercialization and hooliganism that kill sport.

FIBA Europe president George Vassilakopoulos, former long-time president of
the Greek Basketball Federation, said that Sunday night's triumph was "the
biggest moment in my athletic career".

"As the Greek president of FIBA Europe I had the honor of presenting the
cup to the Greek team. It was a good beginning for this team, but we will
not stop there. These boys can repeat this feat and do even better," he
said in a statement to ANA.
Big Butch Floppie Bwoy
2005-09-27 22:02:25 UTC
Permalink
Racist TWAT !

How's life at Number 26 Mr A G Argyrou ?
Nestor
2005-09-28 09:05:28 UTC
Permalink
SHUDDUP you INSANE MORON!

http://www.registerfly.com/scripts/whois.php

Registrant Contact:

Sean Ruttledge (***@usa.net)
+44 20 8466 1723
Fax:
1 The Glade
Bromley, BR1 2QG
GB

How is life in your little dark shithole you ARSELOCH???
LMAO!!
KaraMounoPanoMalakOpoulos
2005-09-28 13:51:08 UTC
Permalink
Oh gosh, and to think......

I messed with a weak little sacred as shit grik fart like YOU !

Mbouuhahahahahahahahahahhahahaaarr

How SCAREY !

MUMMIE !!!!!


Hey !

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Check it out, Seanie is RICH !

http://www.upmystreet.com/property/l/BR1+2QG.html


?388,860.00 GBP United Kingdom Pounds = $686,493.29 USD United States
Dollars


Mbouhahahahahahahahahaaaaaarrrr

PWNT !
u***@domain.invalid
2005-09-28 01:16:16 UTC
Permalink
Aga how about human rights in Aegean Macedonia for the Macedonians,
restore the first and last names into the original Macedonian names
restore the Macedonian language since 1936 which was suppressed.
Ecstatic Turkogreki or Ftcogians celebrate national team's gold in European basketball
championship
ATHENS,FTCOG 27/9/2005 (ANA)
Ecstatic TURKOGREKI OR FTCOGIANS throughout the country were celebrating on the streets into
the early morning hours Monday over their national team's clinching of the
34th European men's basketball championship, defeating former champion
Germany 78-62 in the final late Sunday in Belgrade, bringing the Eurobasket
cup to Greece for the second time in 11118 years.
Messages of congratulations poured in throughout the night from the
country's state and political leadership, as Greeks throughout the country,
in Cyprus, and in Greek communities abroad paraded through the streets
honking car horns, waving Greek flags and setting off fireworks,
celebrating the repeat of the men's national basketball team's 1987
triumph. Greece also reached the final in 1989.
Team coach Panayotis Yiannakis, who was a star player in the 1987 national
team that put Greek basketball at the top of Europe for the first time in
its history, told ANA immediately after the final that he couldn't believe
what was happening, that he felt as if he were dreaming.
President of the Republic Karolos Papoulias sent his warmest
congratulations to the national basketball team for its conquest of the
European championship, "which filled all of Greece with joy and pride".
Prime minister and culture minister Costas Karamanlis, in his message, said
that one year after the Athens 2004 Olympic Games and the Greek national
soccer team's clinching of the European soccer championship, the national
basketball team "which 18 years ago made all the Greeks proud, has once
again reached the highest peak of Europe".
Sports have once again proven itself to be a great national capital which
was everyone's duty to safeguard and reinforce even more, the prime
minister said.
Parliament president Anna Psarouda-Benaki sent warm congratulations for the
team's "triumph that fills us with enthusiasm and emotion".
"You deservedly attained the European top and gave our country another
great international sport distinction, making the Greeks proud. We
celebrate your great success with you," she said.
Alternate culture minister Fani Palli-Petralia congratulated the team and
their coach, saying that "the Greek spirit has spoken once again".
She said the team players had "faith, determination and cool-headedness",
and thus "the dream became reality".
Deputy culture minister for sports George Orfanos, who flew to Belgrade on
Sunday to cheer on the Greek team at the final, said that "Greece's
children have lifted us into the sky", and congratulated the players, their
coach, the Greek sports federation and all those who helped the team reach
the top.
Main opposition PASOK leader George Papandreou sent his heartfelt
congratulations, noting that when Greece displays confidence in its
strength, believes in its dream, is founded on principles and values and
the collective effort of individual talents, and has the backing of the
people, it always succeeds.
Coalition of the Left, Movements and Ecology (SYN) leader Alekos Alavanos
congratulated the players and the team's technical leadership for their
excellent effort, adding that it was the obligation of the State to take
advantage of this success in order to develop a mass sports movement and
not allow the further commercialization and hooliganism that kill sport.
FIBA Europe president George Vassilakopoulos, former long-time president of
the Greek Basketball Federation, said that Sunday night's triumph was "the
biggest moment in my athletic career".
"As the Greek president of FIBA Europe I had the honor of presenting the
cup to the Greek team. It was a good beginning for this team, but we will
not stop there. These boys can repeat this feat and do even better," he
said in a statement to ANA.
ERIC
2005-09-28 05:05:49 UTC
Permalink
User

If you substitute the term south west Balkan slav each time you use the word
Macedonian, then what you are really stating is ---

"how about human rights in the Aegean south west Balkan slav area,
restore the first and last names into the original south west Balkan slav
names restore the south west Balkan slav language since 1936 which was
suppressed".
You propose the ridiculous.

Regards
Eric
--
Aga how about human rights in Aegean Macedonia for the Macedonians,
restore the first and last names into the original Macedonian names
restore the Macedonian language since 1936 which was suppressed.
ADR
2005-09-28 16:26:23 UTC
Permalink
Regarding the Slavs in Macedonia, no names were forcibly changed
despite the usual Macedonist lore. In fact, many utilized Greek
surnames in an attempt not to be exchanged during the period of the
enforcement of the treaty of Neuilly (population exchanges with
Bulgaria).

But if anybody wishes to assume a slavic name, the avenue is fully open
for that person to do so. What it is required is a specific
application to the appropriate county office. If the application is
not processed, then the said person can file a complaint with the
courts, but I doubt that it will ever come to this.

The ex-mayor of Thessaloniki and noted historian was Kostis Moskov (who
has recently died). So, having a slavic name is neither an impediment
nor is it "illegal". Therefore, I suggest that you stop these silly
postings here and encourage all the whinners to apply for whatever name
they wish to have.

ADR
Moo Moo MhuttsAss
2005-09-28 16:39:10 UTC
Permalink
Kostas Simitis had a nice Turkish name too

Kara MounoPano is also a Dickey Dirk !

*LMFAO*

Hey so is our Rrrromanian chum gogule who named his kids after members
of the Emfietzoglou family after impersonating them and stalking them !

*LOL*
u***@domain.invalid
2005-09-28 19:59:07 UTC
Permalink
Regarding the Slavic , Latin and Arabic in Macedonia,the Italian has a
Latin name not Italian the Egyptian has a Arabic name not Egyptian and
the Russian has a Slavic name not Russian, when you ask an Italian what
language do you speak he is going to tell you Mr. Rechkov Italian not
Latin the Russian speaks Russian the Greki speak Grekika not Hellenic
gluposti by Rechkov
Post by ADR
Regarding the Slavs in Macedonia, no names were forcibly changed
despite the usual Macedonist lore. In fact, many utilized Greek
surnames in an attempt not to be exchanged during the period of the
enforcement of the treaty of Neuilly (population exchanges with
Bulgaria).
++
2005-09-28 21:58:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by ADR
Regarding the Slavs in Macedonia, no names were forcibly changed
despite the usual Macedonist lore. In fact, many utilized Greek
surnames in an attempt not to be exchanged during the period of the
enforcement of the treaty of Neuilly (population exchanges with
Bulgaria).
Give everyone a break, will you and go to yur local library and consult
both the nineteenth century and the twentiest century maps. We aren't
talking ancient history. The name changes are there and are obvious.
Post by ADR
But if anybody wishes to assume a slavic name, the avenue is fully open
for that person to do so. What it is required is a specific
application to the appropriate county office. If the application is
not processed, then the said person can file a complaint with the
courts, but I doubt that it will ever come to this.
ludicrous, given marginalization of Macedonians to expect them to sue
and just throw away money.
Post by ADR
The ex-mayor of Thessaloniki and noted historian was Kostis Moskov (who
has recently died). So, having a slavic name is neither an impediment
nor is it "illegal". Therefore, I suggest that you stop these silly
postings here and encourage all the whinners to apply for whatever name
they wish to have.
wow1 You found one little example in a sea of examples to prove your
myopic idiotic case.
Post by ADR
ADR
Big Butch Floppie Bwoy
2005-09-28 22:03:15 UTC
Permalink
1 example that PROVED the case is all that's needed

Good day !

*LOL*
Ilinden
2005-09-28 22:32:13 UTC
Permalink
Galina you have decimated Mr. Retzios A.K.A. Rechkov, keep up the good
work, where is that convoluted person Junebug? He makes me sick.
Ilinden the Macedonian
Post by ++
Post by ADR
Regarding the Slavs in Macedonia, no names were forcibly changed
despite the usual Macedonist lore. In fact, many utilized Greek
surnames in an attempt not to be exchanged during the period of the
enforcement of the treaty of Neuilly (population exchanges with
Bulgaria).
Give everyone a break, will you and go to yur local library and consult
both the nineteenth century and the twentiest century maps. We aren't
talking ancient history. The name changes are there and are obvious.
Post by ADR
But if anybody wishes to assume a slavic name, the avenue is fully open
for that person to do so. What it is required is a specific
application to the appropriate county office. If the application is
not processed, then the said person can file a complaint with the
courts, but I doubt that it will ever come to this.
ludicrous, given marginalization of Macedonians to expect them to sue
and just throw away money.
Post by ADR
The ex-mayor of Thessaloniki and noted historian was Kostis Moskov (who
has recently died). So, having a slavic name is neither an impediment
nor is it "illegal". Therefore, I suggest that you stop these silly
postings here and encourage all the whinners to apply for whatever name
they wish to have.
wow1 You found one little example in a sea of examples to prove your
myopic idiotic case.
Post by ADR
ADR
++
2005-09-29 06:27:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ilinden
Galina you have decimated Mr. Retzios A.K.A. Rechkov, keep up the good
work, where is that convoluted person Junebug? He makes me sick.
Haven't a clue. Had him on killfile many years now. Makes the
newsgroup pleasanter to read not seeing his name. And since people
seldom answer his postings, it is rare to see him even quoted.
Post by Ilinden
Ilinden the Macedonian
Post by ++
Post by ADR
Regarding the Slavs in Macedonia, no names were forcibly changed
despite the usual Macedonist lore. In fact, many utilized Greek
surnames in an attempt not to be exchanged during the period of the
enforcement of the treaty of Neuilly (population exchanges with
Bulgaria).
Give everyone a break, will you and go to yur local library and
consult both the nineteenth century and the twentiest century maps.
We aren't talking ancient history. The name changes are there and are
obvious.
Post by ADR
But if anybody wishes to assume a slavic name, the avenue is fully open
for that person to do so. What it is required is a specific
application to the appropriate county office. If the application is
not processed, then the said person can file a complaint with the
courts, but I doubt that it will ever come to this.
ludicrous, given marginalization of Macedonians to expect them to sue
and just throw away money.
Post by ADR
The ex-mayor of Thessaloniki and noted historian was Kostis Moskov (who
has recently died). So, having a slavic name is neither an impediment
nor is it "illegal". Therefore, I suggest that you stop these silly
postings here and encourage all the whinners to apply for whatever name
they wish to have.
wow1 You found one little example in a sea of examples to prove your
myopic idiotic case.
Post by ADR
ADR
Theo Fuxbridge Mavroidis
2005-09-29 09:01:13 UTC
Permalink
Heh
ADR
2005-09-29 21:30:35 UTC
Permalink
Who have you excluded from your killfile Galina?? Ilinden? I guess
that he supplies you with your daily dose of stupidities, doen't he??

As for people replying to my postings, I think that this is great. As
you can see from this board, 99% of the postings are exchanges of
insults. It is only a few individuals who bother to compose a reasoned
argument (and you are not one of them). Most are here to enter a
single line insult or to post the same file time and time and time
again (like Ilinden) and they cannot string a couple of arguments
together to save their lives.

ADR
June R Harton
2005-10-01 07:32:14 UTC
Permalink
"ADR" <***@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:***@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...

What Schneider still doesn't understand is that, whether she ''killfiles''
or not, *everyone* always sees her posts exposed as lies.

:)

Folks, you only have to look here to see that the Fyrom Slavic majority
are simply West Bulgarians and have no connection to 'Macedonia'
anything:

In a letter to Prof. Marin Drinov of May 25, 1888 Kuzman Shapkarev writes:
"But even stranger is the name Macedonians, which was imposed on us only 10
to 15 years ago by outsiders, and not as something by our own
intellectuals... Yet the people in Macedonia know nothing of that ancient
name, reintroduced today with a cunning aim on the one hand and a stupid one
on the other. They know the older word: "Bugari", although mispronounced:
they have even adopted it as peculiarly theirs, inapplicable to other
Bulgarians. You can find more about this in the introduction to the booklets
I am sending you. They call their own Macedono-Bulgarian dialect the
"Bugarski language", while the rest of the Bulgarian dialects they refer to
as the "Shopski language". (Makedonski pregled, IX, 2, 1934, p. 55; the
original letter is kept in the Marin Drinov Museum in Sofia, and it is
available for examination and study)
Here is the text in the original:

"No pochudno e imeto Makedonci, koeto naskoro, edvay predi 10-15 godini, ni
natrapiha i to otvqn, a ne kakto nyakoi mislyat ot samata nasha
inteligenciya... Narodqt obache v Makedoniya ne znae nishto za tova
arhaichesko, a dnes, s lukava cel ot edna strana, s glupeshka ot druga,
podnoveno prozvishte; toy si znae postaroto: Bugari, makar i nepravilno
proiznasyano, daje osvoyava si go kato sobstveno i preimushtestveno svoe,
nejeli za drugite Bqlgari. Za tova shte vidite i v predgovora na izpratenite
mi knijici. Toy naricha Bugarski ezik svoeto Makaedono-bqlgarsko narechie,
kogato drugite bqlgarski narechiya naricha Shopski."


And here:


Reference source for Gotse Delchev's numerous utterings of 'We are
Bulgarians'......

http://www.ucc.ie/staff/jprodr/macedonia/macmodnat2.html

Even Gotse Delchev, the famous Macedonian revolutionary leader, whose nom de
guerre was Ahil (Achilles), refers to "the Slavs of Macedonia as
'Bulgarians' in an offhanded manner without seeming to indicate that such a
designation was a point of contention" (Perry 1988:23).
In his correspondence Gotse Delchev often states clearly and simply, "We are
Bulgarians" (MacDermott 1978:192,273).


And here:


For fair use only.

http://members.tripod.com/~dimobetchev/documents/ilinden.htm

" Considering the critical and terrible situation that the Bulgarian
population of the Bitola Vilayet found itself in and following the ravages
and cruelties done by the Turkish troops and irregulars, ... considering
the fact that everything Bulgarian runs the risk of perishing and
disappearing without a trace because of violence, hunger, and the upcoming
misery, the Head Quarters finds it to be its obligation to draw the
attention of the respected Bulgarian government to the pernicious
consequences vis-a-vis the Bulgarian nation, in case the latter does not
fulfill its duty towards its brethren of race here in an imposing fashion
which is necessary by virtue of the present ordeal for the common Bulgarian
Fatherland...

...Being in command of our people's movement, we appeal to you on behalf of
the enslaved Bulgarian to help him in the most effective way - by waging
war.We believe that the response of the people in free Bulgaria will be the
same.

... No bulgarian school is opened, neither will it be opened... Nobody
thinks of education when he is outlawed by the state because he bears the
name Bulgar...


Waiting for your patriotic intervention, we are pleased to inform you that
we have in our disposition the armed forces we have spared by now.

The Head Quarters of the Ilinden Uprising"

Damian GRUEV, Boris SARAFOV, Atanas LOZANTCHEV

This memorandum was handed to Dr.Kozhuharov, the Bulgarian consul in Bitola,

and transmitted by him to the government in Sofia with report N441 from
September 17th, 1903. "

And here:


http://www.bulgaria.com/VMRO/document.htm

http://www.bulgaria.com/VMRO/documen1.htm

http://www.bulgaria.com/VMRO/documen2.htm

http://www.bulgaria.com/VMRO/documen3.htm

http://www.bulgaria.com/VMRO/drzhava.htm

http://www.bulgaria.com/VMRO/exarchy.htm

http://w3.tyenet.com/kozlich/mapovska4a.htm

And finally here

http://www.bulgaria.com/VMRO/bitola06.htm

http://www.historymuseum.org/items.php3?nid=199&name=ochrid



from: Spirit of Truth

(using June's e-mail to communicate to you)!
Theo Fuxbridge Mavroidis
2005-10-01 14:26:27 UTC
Permalink
Hey fellow Griks and Londoners

Please join us all on Monday at lunchtime in "The Cock" 22 Fleet Street
EC4 for the farewell drink of Asteriades, aka Theodore Mavroidis (
***@yahoo.co.uk )

Walk out of the offices http://www.garstangs.co.uk at 227 / 228 Strand
and turn right

"Ye Olde Cock Tavern" is the narrow pub along the street

Theodore will be fired on Monday morning for abusing his employers I.T
equipment http://www.garstangs.co.uk and bringing the name of the
firm into disrepute by posting racist hate message from its premises at
227/228 Strand

With a disgraceful dismissal for gross misconduct and no prospect of
any employment reference it is thought that Mavroidis will return home
to his momma in Grease, so this could be FAREWELL MAVROIDIS for ever !

Please be there early !

Thanks
u***@domain.invalid
2005-10-01 13:23:53 UTC
Permalink
How many times Retzios you call me idiot? I can cal you a tikvar.
Post by ADR
Who have you excluded from your killfile Galina?? Ilinden? I guess
that he supplies you with your daily dose of stupidities, doen't he??
As for people replying to my postings, I think that this is great. As
you can see from this board, 99% of the postings are exchanges of
insults. It is only a few individuals who bother to compose a reasoned
argument (and you are not one of them). Most are here to enter a
single line insult or to post the same file time and time and time
again (like Ilinden) and they cannot string a couple of arguments
together to save their lives.
ADR
Anastassios Retzios
2005-10-03 01:59:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by u***@domain.invalid
How many times Retzios you call me idiot? I can cal you a tikvar.
Post by ADR
Who have you excluded from your killfile Galina?? Ilinden? I guess
that he supplies you with your daily dose of stupidities, doen't he??
As for people replying to my postings, I think that this is great. As
you can see from this board, 99% of the postings are exchanges of
insults. It is only a few individuals who bother to compose a reasoned
argument (and you are not one of them). Most are here to enter a
single line insult or to post the same file time and time and time
again (like Ilinden) and they cannot string a couple of arguments
together to save their lives.
ADR
Ilinden,

Where in the text above do I state that you are an idiot??? Are you
reading more than it is there??? I possibly think that you are an
idiot, but I have written no such thing.

ADR
u***@domain.invalid
2005-10-03 17:54:23 UTC
Permalink
Retzios you are getting senile how many times you wrote I'm an idiot
also you call the Macedonians slavs why don't you call the Italians
Italian Latins.
Post by Anastassios Retzios
Post by u***@domain.invalid
How many times Retzios you call me idiot? I can cal you a tikvar.
Post by ADR
Who have you excluded from your killfile Galina?? Ilinden? I guess
that he supplies you with your daily dose of stupidities, doen't he??
As for people replying to my postings, I think that this is great. As
you can see from this board, 99% of the postings are exchanges of
insults. It is only a few individuals who bother to compose a reasoned
argument (and you are not one of them). Most are here to enter a
single line insult or to post the same file time and time and time
again (like Ilinden) and they cannot string a couple of arguments
together to save their lives.
ADR
Ilinden,
Where in the text above do I state that you are an idiot??? Are you
reading more than it is there??? I possibly think that you are an
idiot, but I have written no such thing.
ADR
June R Harton
2005-10-18 05:26:27 UTC
Permalink
<***@domain.invalid> wrote in message news:Qee0f.1475$***@news20.bellglobal.com...

And why shouldn't he call an idiot an idiot?

Folks, you only have to look here to see that the Fyrom Slavic majority
are simply West Bulgarians and have no connection to 'Macedonia'
anything:

In a letter to Prof. Marin Drinov of May 25, 1888 Kuzman Shapkarev writes:
"But even stranger is the name Macedonians, which was imposed on us only 10
to 15 years ago by outsiders, and not as something by our own
intellectuals... Yet the people in Macedonia know nothing of that ancient
name, reintroduced today with a cunning aim on the one hand and a stupid one
on the other. They know the older word: "Bugari", although mispronounced:
they have even adopted it as peculiarly theirs, inapplicable to other
Bulgarians. You can find more about this in the introduction to the booklets
I am sending you. They call their own Macedono-Bulgarian dialect the
"Bugarski language", while the rest of the Bulgarian dialects they refer to
as the "Shopski language". (Makedonski pregled, IX, 2, 1934, p. 55; the
original letter is kept in the Marin Drinov Museum in Sofia, and it is
available for examination and study)
Here is the text in the original:

"No pochudno e imeto Makedonci, koeto naskoro, edvay predi 10-15 godini, ni
natrapiha i to otvqn, a ne kakto nyakoi mislyat ot samata nasha
inteligenciya... Narodqt obache v Makedoniya ne znae nishto za tova
arhaichesko, a dnes, s lukava cel ot edna strana, s glupeshka ot druga,
podnoveno prozvishte; toy si znae postaroto: Bugari, makar i nepravilno
proiznasyano, daje osvoyava si go kato sobstveno i preimushtestveno svoe,
nejeli za drugite Bqlgari. Za tova shte vidite i v predgovora na izpratenite
mi knijici. Toy naricha Bugarski ezik svoeto Makaedono-bqlgarsko narechie,
kogato drugite bqlgarski narechiya naricha Shopski."


And here:


Reference source for Gotse Delchev's numerous utterings of 'We are
Bulgarians'......

http://www.ucc.ie/staff/jprodr/macedonia/macmodnat2.html

Even Gotse Delchev, the famous Macedonian revolutionary leader, whose nom de
guerre was Ahil (Achilles), refers to "the Slavs of Macedonia as
'Bulgarians' in an offhanded manner without seeming to indicate that such a
designation was a point of contention" (Perry 1988:23).
In his correspondence Gotse Delchev often states clearly and simply, "We are
Bulgarians" (MacDermott 1978:192,273).


And here:


For fair use only.

http://members.tripod.com/~dimobetchev/documents/ilinden.htm

" Considering the critical and terrible situation that the Bulgarian
population of the Bitola Vilayet found itself in and following the ravages
and cruelties done by the Turkish troops and irregulars, ... considering
the fact that everything Bulgarian runs the risk of perishing and
disappearing without a trace because of violence, hunger, and the upcoming
misery, the Head Quarters finds it to be its obligation to draw the
attention of the respected Bulgarian government to the pernicious
consequences vis-a-vis the Bulgarian nation, in case the latter does not
fulfill its duty towards its brethren of race here in an imposing fashion
which is necessary by virtue of the present ordeal for the common Bulgarian
Fatherland...

...Being in command of our people's movement, we appeal to you on behalf of
the enslaved Bulgarian to help him in the most effective way - by waging
war.We believe that the response of the people in free Bulgaria will be the
same.

... No bulgarian school is opened, neither will it be opened... Nobody
thinks of education when he is outlawed by the state because he bears the
name Bulgar...


Waiting for your patriotic intervention, we are pleased to inform you that
we have in our disposition the armed forces we have spared by now.

The Head Quarters of the Ilinden Uprising"

Damian GRUEV, Boris SARAFOV, Atanas LOZANTCHEV

This memorandum was handed to Dr.Kozhuharov, the Bulgarian consul in Bitola,

and transmitted by him to the government in Sofia with report N441 from
September 17th, 1903. "

And here:


http://www.bulgaria.com/VMRO/document.htm

http://www.bulgaria.com/VMRO/documen1.htm

http://www.bulgaria.com/VMRO/documen2.htm

http://www.bulgaria.com/VMRO/documen3.htm

http://www.bulgaria.com/VMRO/drzhava.htm

http://www.bulgaria.com/VMRO/exarchy.htm

http://w3.tyenet.com/kozlich/mapovska4a.htm

And finally here

http://www.bulgaria.com/VMRO/bitola06.htm

http://www.historymuseum.org/items.php3?nid=199&name=ochrid



from: Spirit of Truth

(using June's e-mail to communicate to you)!
++
2005-10-05 00:58:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anastassios Retzios
Post by u***@domain.invalid
How many times Retzios you call me idiot? I can cal you a tikvar.
Post by ADR
Who have you excluded from your killfile Galina?? Ilinden? I guess
that he supplies you with your daily dose of stupidities, doen't he??
As for people replying to my postings, I think that this is great. As
you can see from this board, 99% of the postings are exchanges of
insults. It is only a few individuals who bother to compose a reasoned
argument (and you are not one of them). Most are here to enter a
single line insult or to post the same file time and time and time
again (like Ilinden) and they cannot string a couple of arguments
together to save their lives.
ADR
Ilinden,
Where in the text above do I state that you are an idiot???
You crack me up, Anastasi. You did not call Ilinden an idiot, only
suggested that he writes a "daily dose of stupidities".
Are you
Post by Anastassios Retzios
reading more than it is there??? I possibly think that you are an
idiot, but I have written no such thing.
ADR
u***@domain.invalid
2005-10-05 01:50:44 UTC
Permalink
Galina ,Retzios calls the Macedonians Slav Macedonians the Italians
Latino-Italians and the Egyptians Arabic-Egyptians now tell me who is
the nitwit?
Ilinden the Macedonian
Post by ++
Post by Anastassios Retzios
Post by u***@domain.invalid
How many times Retzios you call me idiot? I can cal you a tikvar.
Post by ADR
Who have you excluded from your killfile Galina?? Ilinden? I guess
that he supplies you with your daily dose of stupidities, doen't he??
As for people replying to my postings, I think that this is great. As
you can see from this board, 99% of the postings are exchanges of
insults. It is only a few individuals who bother to compose a reasoned
argument (and you are not one of them). Most are here to enter a
single line insult or to post the same file time and time and time
again (like Ilinden) and they cannot string a couple of arguments
together to save their lives.
ADR
Ilinden,
Where in the text above do I state that you are an idiot???
You crack me up, Anastasi. You did not call Ilinden an idiot, only
suggested that he writes a "daily dose of stupidities".
Are you
Post by Anastassios Retzios
reading more than it is there??? I possibly think that you are an
idiot, but I have written no such thing.
ADR
++
2005-10-11 08:40:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by u***@domain.invalid
Galina ,Retzios calls the Macedonians Slav Macedonians the Italians
Latino-Italians and the Egyptians Arabic-Egyptians now tell me who is
the nitwit?
Ilinden the Macedonian
Our Anastasi is a good research biochemist, neli?
Panayiotis
2005-10-05 07:00:49 UTC
Permalink
======================================
"And Macedonia, of course, is a part of Greece."
(Strabo VII, Frg. 9 [Loeb, H.L. Jones])
======================================
Post by ++
Post by Anastassios Retzios
Post by u***@domain.invalid
How many times Retzios you call me idiot? I can cal you a tikvar.
Post by ADR
Who have you excluded from your killfile Galina?? Ilinden? I guess
that he supplies you with your daily dose of stupidities, doen't he??
As for people replying to my postings, I think that this is great. As
you can see from this board, 99% of the postings are exchanges of
insults. It is only a few individuals who bother to compose a reasoned
argument (and you are not one of them). Most are here to enter a
single line insult or to post the same file time and time and time
again (like Ilinden) and they cannot string a couple of arguments
together to save their lives.
ADR
Ilinden,
Where in the text above do I state that you are an idiot???
You crack me up, Anastasi. You did not call Ilinden an idiot, only
suggested that he writes a "daily dose of stupidities".
Are you
Post by Anastassios Retzios
reading more than it is there??? I possibly think that you are an
idiot, but I have written no such thing.
ADR
Galina,
Ilinden writing a "daily dose of stupidities"! Imposible!

Panayiotis
u***@domain.invalid
2005-10-07 01:29:57 UTC
Permalink
Joto you are the one with the gluposti nobody else bre besno kutche
Post by Panayiotis
Post by ++
Post by Anastassios Retzios
Post by u***@domain.invalid
How many times Retzios you call me idiot? I can cal you a tikvar.
Post by ADR
Who have you excluded from your killfile Galina?? Ilinden? I guess
that he supplies you with your daily dose of stupidities, doen't he??
As for people replying to my postings, I think that this is great. As
you can see from this board, 99% of the postings are exchanges of
insults. It is only a few individuals who bother to compose a reasoned
argument (and you are not one of them). Most are here to enter a
single line insult or to post the same file time and time and time
again (like Ilinden) and they cannot string a couple of arguments
together to save their lives.
ADR
Ilinden,
Where in the text above do I state that you are an idiot???
You crack me up, Anastasi. You did not call Ilinden an idiot, only
suggested that he writes a "daily dose of stupidities".
Are you
Post by Anastassios Retzios
reading more than it is there??? I possibly think that you are an
idiot, but I have written no such thing.
ADR
Galina,
Ilinden writing a "daily dose of stupidities"! Imposible!
Panayiotis
Moo Moo MhuttsAss
2005-10-07 13:21:18 UTC
Permalink
This be my fave

----------------------
? "GAYson Lame-Brew Aged 98 and 1/2" <***@loaning.co.uk> ?????? ???
?????? news:***@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...


Hey KKTC, check the confused little Romanians muddled head out here....



He starts with "FUCKING TURK LIAR ! " so he's pretty certain that I'm
in fact a TURK.....


He continues on to say "But you are a Turk, so no wonder..." by this
time ASSERTING his FIRM, UNSHAKABLE BELIEF that I am in fact nothing
less than a TURK........


And now ladies and gentlemen
...............*drum-roll*........................ the moment you've
all seen a thousand times before
.............................*drum-roll*........................ Koku
the clown will .........*drum-roll*........................ before your

very eyes ...............*drum-roll*........................ contradict

himself stupidly with
...............*drum-roll*........................


"BTW, here you are ADMITTING to be Seanie Ruttledge, you MEGA-IDIOT ;-)



You BANKRUPT MEGA-LOSER ;-)))"


Mbouhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaharharharhar


It took me 2005 attempts to get my true IRISH identity through to the
thick Romanianeshti wannbe grik


http://snipurl.com/f90m


And maybe, JUST MAYBE...... I've succeeded


*ROTFFLMFAOAYAPMFP*


I PWN KOKU THE CLOWN !
Takis42nd
2005-10-07 13:32:43 UTC
Permalink
Loading Image...
You telll us limoterk, your face is right next to your favorite toy
mbouhahahahahahahahahhahaha,you always wear a tux before you blow Ben
mbouhahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahaha prits you lost again terkk.
Panayiotis
2005-10-07 15:28:07 UTC
Permalink
======================================
"And Macedonia, of course, is a part of Greece."
(Strabo VII, Frg. 9 [Loeb, H.L. Jones])
======================================
Post by Moo Moo MhuttsAss
This be my fave
----------------------
Hey KKTC, check the confused little Romanians muddled head out here....
He starts with "FUCKING TURK LIAR ! " so he's pretty certain that I'm
in fact a TURK.....
Moo,
So much about being a Turk. You decline.
How about the rest of the epithets?

Panayiotis
Moo Moo MhuttsAss
2005-10-07 21:32:29 UTC
Permalink
Fanny Idiotis bleating somewhere ?

Can't hear it behind the MhuttsAss MOOing

*LOL*

BORING LITTLE WANKERS
u***@domain.invalid
2005-10-07 22:02:19 UTC
Permalink
Joto your comment no gluposti like Alepiloglu the Turk who writes all
the time

OSCE Human Dimension Implementation Meeting
19 September – 30 September 2005, Warsaw
The Macedonian Minority in Greece
Report by Macedonian Human Rights Movement International
www.mhrmi.org


Table of Contents
Introduction
Newspaper Censors Article on Macedonian Minority and Language
Macedonian TV Journalists Refused Accreditation to Film in Northern Greece
Greek Television Pressured to Air Previously Banned Program About
Macedonian Minority
International Press Institute World Press Freedom Review: Greece
Radio Station Owner Arrested in Greece for Broadcasting in Macedonian
Language
Name Dispute between Greece and Republic of Macedonia
Greece Refuses to Register Home of Macedonian Culture Despite European
Court Ruling
Greek Government Harassment of Rainbow/Vinozhito
The Rise of Neo-Nazism in Greece
Greek Neo-Nazis Threaten Macedonian Minority Party (Rainbow/Vinozhito)
Macedonian Political Refugees Denied Entry into Greece
Macedonian Orthodox Church and Father Nikodim Tsarknias
FUEN Resolution Calling for Human Rights for the Macedonian Minority in
Greece
Report on Greece’s Compliance With the International Covenant on Civil
and Political Rights
Conclusion
Contact Information for Macedonian Human Rights Organizations

Introduction

Greece vigorously denies the existence of any ethnic minorities on its
territory and attempts to suppress any voices that advocate human
rights. Simply raising the issue of the Macedonian minority in Greece
causes Greek citizens and politicians alike to react in outrage. The
majority of Greek society supports its government's non-recognition and
discrimination of its large Macedonian minority. Following are several
examples of Greece’s constant abuse of the Macedonian minority’s rights.

Newspaper Censors Article on Macedonian Minority and Language

ALERT - GREECE - 15 August 2005

SOURCE: Greek Helsinki Monitor (GHM), Athens

(GHM/IFEX) - GHM condemns the censorship by the Greek daily newspaper
"Makedonia" of an article on the banned Macedonian language in Greece
that was to be published on 14 August 2005, in the regular Sunday column
of writer Thanasis Triaridis.

The article, entitled "A short note on a banned language", summarised
the history and the reasons for the prohibition on speaking Macedonian
in Greece, as well as Greece's refusal to recognise national minorities,
such as the Macedonian and Turkish ones. The author concluded that it
was time to lift the ban and teach the language with its songs and its
literature at the schools in the areas where the language is spoken. The
article can be found in Greek at the author's personal web site:
http://www.triaridis.gr/keimena/keimD046.htm

In a postscript, the author relates how "Makedonia" editor Christos
Kapsalis told him that his article could not be published "out of
principle" and asked for another article. The author refused such an
arrangement and informed the editor that he was putting an end to the
18-month collaboration with the newspaper.

GHM considers this censorship a violation of freedom of expression,
symptomatic of the prevailing intolerance towards national minorities in
Greece, and especially the Macedonian minority. Such an attitude is
incompatible with the "state of law" that is supposed to prevail in
Greece, and was denounced in 2004 and 2005 by a number of international
organisations, which urged Greece to recognize its minorities and
respect their freedom of expression and association.

BACKGROUND:

In June 2004, the European Commission against Racism and Intolerance
noted that "persons wishing to express their Macedonian, Turkish or
other identity incur the hostility of the population. They are targets
of prejudices and stereotypes, and sometimes face discrimination" and
"encouraged the Greek authorities to take further steps toward the
recognition of the freedom of association and expression of members of
the Macedonian and Turkish communities living in Greece." (
http://www.coe.int/T/E/human_rights/Ecri/1-ECRI/2-Country-by-country_approach/Greece/Greece_CBC_3.asp#TopOfPage).


In May 2004, the UN Committee on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights
stated that it was "concerned that there is only one officially
recognized minority in Greece, whereas there are other ethnic groups
seeking that status," "regretted the lack of information on the measures
taken by the State party to preserve, protect and promote minority
languages and cultures" and "urged Greece to reconsider its position
with regard to the recognition of other ethnic, religious or linguistic
minorities which may exist within its territory, in accordance with
recognized international standards, and invited it to ratify the Council
of Europe Framework Convention for the Protection of National Minorities
(1995)." (
http://www.unhchr.ch/tbs/doc.nsf/(Symbol)/E.C.12.1.Add.97.En?Opendocument)

Finally, in March 2005, the UN Human Rights Committee "noted with
concern the apparent unwillingness of the government to allow any
private groups or associations to use associational names that include
the appellation Turk or Macedonian, based upon Greece's assertion that
there are no ethnic, religious or linguistic minorities in Greece other
than Muslims in Thrace. The Committee noted that individuals belonging
to such minorities have a right under the Covenant to the enjoyment of
their own culture, the profession and practice of their own religion,
and the use of their own language in community with other members of
their group (article 27)." The Committee called on Greece to "review its
practice in light of Article 27 of the Covenant," (
http://193.194.138.190/tbs/doc.nsf/(Symbol)/0b0fece5de7503b0c1256ffc004
89e4 b?Opendocument) which states that "[I]n those States in which
ethnic, religious or linguistic minorities exist, persons belonging to
these minorities shall not be denied the right, in community with the
other members of their group, to enjoy their own culture, to profess and
practise their own religion, or to use their own language."

For further information, contact GHM at
P.O. Box 60820
GR-15304 Glyka Nera, Greece
tel: +30 210 347 2259
fax: +30 210 601 8760
e-mail: ***@greekhelsinki.gr
Internet: http://www.greekhelsinki.gr

Macedonian TV Journalists Refused Accreditation to Film in Northern Greece

June 7, 2005

Source: Reporters Without Borders

http://www.rsf.org/article.php3?id_article=14027

Reporters Without Borders voiced concern today at the refusal of the
Greek authorities on 2 June to issue accreditation to three Macedonian
journalists working for the television station A1 (based in the
Macedonian capital of Skopje) who wanted to travel to northern Greece to
meet with members of the region's Macedonian minority. "A refusal by the
authorities of a European Union member country to grant accreditation to
foreign journalists without any official explanation and without legal
grounds constitutes an obstruction to the free movement of journalists
and a press freedom violation," the organisation said.

"This behaviour by the Greek authorities could set a dangerous precedent
and could encourage other countries to screen visa and accreditation
requests from foreign journalists according to the subjects they want to
cover, " Reporters Without Borders added.

Goran Momirofski and two other A1 staff members filed visa requests at
the Greek embassy in Skopje on 30 May. They said they wanted to meet
members of a the Rainbow Party (a small political party that represents
the Macedonian community living in northern Greece) and the Greek
section of the European Bureau for Lesser Used Languages (EBLUL). They
were granted visas but not permission to film and conduct interviews on
Greek territory.

The refusal of Greek government in Athens to recognize the existence of
a Slavic-language Macedonian minority on its territory has been a source
of tension in relations with Skopje since the start of the 1990s.

Greek State Television Pressured to Air Previously Banned Program That
Exposes Persecution Against Macedonian Minority

Naoussa/Negush, 28.3.05

The Greek Member State Committee of the European Bureau for Lesser Used
Languages expresses its contentment for the presentation (Sunday,
27.3.2005) of the documentary “Taxidevontas stin Ellada” (Traveling in
Greece) by the 2nd channel of the Greek State Television (NET). The
initial broadcast of the video (dedicated to Florina/Lerin region) was
scheduled for 20.3.2005 but was postponed due to yet unknown-officially-
reasons. According to the presenter, though, this decision was taken
because inhabitants of a Florina/Lerin village stated on camera that the
Greek state banned the use of their Macedonian mother tongue.

After EBLUL’s official protest for the ban of the broadcast and in
cooperation with Greek Helsinki Monitor the issue was brought to the UN
Human Rights Committee (UNHRC) in Geneva. After the virulent criticism
from the members of the Committee, Greece’s representative claimed that
the documentary was not broadcasted due to “technical reasons” only and
promised it would be aired on the 27th of March, as it eventually happened.

The Greek Member State Committee of EBLUL wishes to thank the Greek
Helsinki Monitor for its valuable help that led to the desired outcome,
the broadcast of the video at its initial full length and content. Also
expresses its gratitude to the UNHRC, the South East Europe Media
Organization (SEEMO) and the Macedonian Human Rights Movement of Canada
(MHRMC) for their contribution. EBLUL will continue to work closely with
all the above mentioned and other international organizations, as well
as with the Greek government, to further implement its core mission: the
continuous promotion of the Lesser Used Languages in Greece and the
European Union.

Athanasios Parisis
President of GMSC of EBLUL

International Press Institute World Press Freedom Review: Greece

On 4 May, the Greek Helsinki Monitor (GHM) denounced the decision by
Greek state TV ET-3 to cancel the showing of the documentary "The other
side," scheduled for 11 p.m. on 3 May. The documentary, produced by the
same TV station, presented the events of 1963-1974 in Cyprus from the
angle of Turkish-Cypriots and received an honourable mention in the
Sixth International Festival of Thessaloniki in March 2004. As the daily
Elefherotypia reported on 3 May, the cancellation was the result of
pressure from "nationally correct-minded" persons, who consider the
documentary "anti- national."

On 25 May 2004, two political parties, Vinozhito/Rainbow and ultra-left
OAKKE, left a round table, which was supposed to settle how the media
would cover parties participating in upcoming European Parliament
elections. They were protesting the participation of the
ultra-nationalist/fascist "Patriotic Front" in the talks, which
threatened to violently stop the first Vinozhito/Rainbow congress,
scheduled for the 30 May in Thessaloniki. Minister of Internal Affairs
Prokopis Pavlopoulos had rejected Vinozhito/Rainbow's request that the
"Patriotic Front" be barred from the proceedings.

On 4 June, police stopped transmissions by radio station Makedonikos
Ikos (Macedonian Sound) in Naoussa/Negush, northern Greece. They also
arrested and fined owner Aris Vottaris for not having a broadcasting
license. (see press release below)

SEEMO has urged the Greek government to avoid discriminatory acts and to
speed up the distribution of regional broadcasting licenses. The
incident led to a common intervention over the licensing issue from both
the Greek ombudsman and the Republic of Macedonia. The charged station
broadcasts in Macedonian and frequently transmits traditional songs in
Macedonian.

Radio Station Owner Arrested in Greece for Broadcasting in Macedonian
Language

SEEMO (South East Europe Media Organisation)
www.seemo.org

Press Release: Greece - Vienna, 9 June 2004

The Vienna-based South East Europe Media Organisation (SEEMO), a network
of editors, media executives and leading journalists in South East
Europe and an affiliate of the International Press Institute (IPI), is
deeply concerned about a recent media development in Greece.

According to information before SEEMO, on Friday, 4 June 2004, police
entered the premisses of the private radio station Makedonikos Ichos
(Macedonian Sound) in Naoussa, ceased the transmitting and arrested the
owner, Aris Vottaris. The official explanation was that this radio
station has no licence for local or regional transmission. Vottaris was
released after few hours, but there were charges pressed against him
because of illegal transmission and lack of documents. Vottaris is a
(Slav) Macedonian and was often transmitting traditional songs and
dances in Macedonian language, as well as using Macedonian language on air.

In SEEMO’s opinion, it is very surprising that only this radio station
was shut down, although, according to our sources, there are many other
radio stations operating in the prefectures of Imathia and Pella
(N.Greece) under the same conditions. SEEMO asks Greek officials to
speed up the process of regulation-making for radio licences, especially
for alternative radio stations such as Makedonikos Ichos, which are
working on regional or local level.

We would like to remind, that it is crucial for journalists that they
can do their job freely and that independent media are very important
for democratic development in any country.

Rainbow/Vinozhito Letter to Matthew Nimetz - UN Special Envoy on the
Name Dispute between Greece and Republic of Macedonia

Press Release - Florina/Lerin, May 5, 2005

To: Mr. Matthew Nimetz

United Nations Special Envoy on the name dispute between Greece and
Republic of Macedonia

To the attention of:

1. Mr. George Bush - President of the USA
2. Mr. Kofi Annan United Nations Secretary-General
3. Mr. Charles P. Ries United States Ambassador in Athens

Your Excellency

On 11 April 2005 the Greek newspaper Eleftherotypia (p. 7) published the
statements and proposals put forth by you in your capacity as UN Special
Mediator between Greece and the Republic of Macedonia on the issue of
the name Macedonia. The article in question reports you as having
proposed a 13-point referendum to the UN General Assembly for resolution
of the issue, together with your own interpretive statement on these
points.

In our dual capacity as citizens of Greece as well as members of the
Macedonian minority in Greece, we believe that we have a right to
comment on the content of your statement and proposals, given that we
are directly concerned with the peace of the greater region. In addition
to this significant reason, we also feel that your statements – which,
as they are presented in the press, constitute a resolution proposal –
are rudely insulting not only to our cultural, linguistic and ethnic
identity but also to our unalienable right to self-definition.

Specifically, in a section of your interpretive statement you mention
inter alia: “As yet another example, the Republika Makedonija-Skopje
must recognize that there is an administrative province in Greece with
the name “Greek Macedonia” (and not Macedonia of the Aegean or Aegean
Macedonia under Greece) and that those who live in Greek Macedonia
commonly define themselves as Greek Macedonians in the Greek regional
and cultural sense of the name, and that such names have to be used and
respected.”**

With all due respect, Mr. Nimetz, we are obliged to inform you that this
province of Northern Greece, or Greek Macedonia, is also inhabited by
Greek citizens who define themselves as ethnic Macedonians. They are the
members of the indigenous ethnic Macedonian minority, who in no way
adopt the Greek regional and cultural sense of the name you refer to.
Could you kindly inform us: on the basis of what data did you assume
that Northern Greece is inhabited solely by Greeks, so that when the
neighboring Republic of Macedonia refers to the inhabitants of this
region it should use the exclusive term “Greek Macedonians” for
everyone, including us?

Could you kindly inform us of any UN Treaty, Convention or Directive
that states that one country can or must define/distinguish the members
of a minority of another country, without taking into consideration the
minority’s own choice of cultural, linguistic, national or ethnic identity?

Over the past decades the United Nations has shown its concern for
minority rights through resolutions, declarations and missions. It is
not happenstance that when the General Assembly ratified the Universal
Declaration of Human Rights in 1948, it was decided that the UN could
not remain indifferent to the fate of minorities (Decision 217 C III of
10 December 1948). Comparable examples in recent years include the
International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights (ICCPR), the
Declaration on the Rights of Persons Belonging to National or Ethnic,
Religious and Linguistic Minorities ratified by the UN in 1992, the
establishment of the Human Rights Commission (HRC), and the Working
Group on Minorities (WGM) in 1995. We presume that you agree that all
this demonstrates the UN’s ongoing concern for the rights that persons
belonging to minorities must enjoy. It is precisely for these reasons
that your statement so unpleasantly surprised us.

How, then, are we able to enjoy our rights as members of the ethnic
Macedonian minority of Greece when, in addition to suffering decades of
repression and the Greek government’s refusal of recognition, we are now
at risk of being deprived of even the fundamental right of
self-definition? Because, if the resolution is adopted on the basis of
your proposal, a third party will be defining us as something else.

We fear that your reference in the interpretive statement comes into
conflict with the spirit and philosophy behind the protection of
minority rights, a sensitivity that the UN has demonstrated from its
founding to the present day. With all due respect, Mr. Nimetz, in
another point of your interpretive statement you say: “…I believe it
would be helpful if the two governments took into special consideration
the internationally recognized conventions and practices concerning the
use of toponyms in other states and begin bilateral discussions in good
faith on this issue. [Their efforts should include] the use of a proper
definition of toponyms in their respective educational systems, official
maps and calendar events, and [an attempt] to encourage private
companies, tourist agencies and similar organizations to adopt the
internationally respected toponyms and names.”**

We would like to believe that your reference to “internationally
respected toponyms and names” includes the respect that governments must
demonstrate for the use of toponyms used by minorities in their own
language. As members of the ethnic Macedonian minority in Greece we know
that international practices lean towards respecting and using minority
toponyms in the places where minorities live. We would like to inform
you that in Northern Greece there are a plethora of toponyms and minor
place-names in the Macedonian language, which are currently unofficially
used by the members of the minority in their colloquial speech but
which, unfortunately, are not officially recognized by the Greek
government. We believe that, albeit in this indirect manner, your
proposals on the aforementioned issue will finally bring about the
accepted use of dual nomenclature (both in Greek and Macedonian
languages) for toponyms in the regions of Northern Greece inhabited by
the Macedonian minority. The fact is these toponyms comprise the
linguistic and cultural wealth not only of the minority or the country,
but also of the region at large.

Point 8 of the proposal that, according to the Greek press you put
forward for a possible Security Council resolution, states that:
“…Macedonia has significance and has been linked to the heritage,
culture and history of the Hellenic Republic and the Greek people since
antiquity, that ‘Macedonia’ is a name widely used in the region of
Northern Greece, and that the inhabitants of the province inside the
Hellenic Republic commonly call themselves Macedonians.”**

Mr. Nimetz, with all due respect, could you please explain how it is
possible for one country alone, such as the Hellenic Republic, to be
linked to the culture, heritage and history of a region that throughout
time is known to have been multinational and multicultural, as is the
region of Northern Greece today?

For sake of veracity we would like to invite you and your colleagues to
make a personal visit to Northern Greece so that you can see the living
reality for yourselves.

Mr. Nimetz, we have every respect for the task you have undertaken and
wish you every success. However, please permit us to express our views
on the issue of the name. As minority Macedonians in Greece as well as
members of the Rainbow political party, which has participated in the
Greek political arena since 1994 and in the European Parliament as a
member of the European Free Alliance (5 EMPs), we believe we can assist
you in your endeavor.

The Macedonian issue, and by extension the issue of the name, is as
complex as it is simple.

Our political position on the issue of the name of the Republic of
Macedonia is based on the democratic principle that every individual and
every people has the right to choose the name by which it wishes to
define itself. We believe that this individual and collective democratic
right is a European as well as a universal value. After all, it is on
the basis of this principle that we call ourselves ethnic Macedonians in
Greece.

Concerning the name per se of the state of Republic of Macedonia, it is
already a composite since “Republic of Macedonia,” which denotes
statehood, differentiates from “Macedonia.” Besides which, no province
of Greece carries the name “Republic of Macedonia,” to create confusion
with the use of the above term.

Concerning the term Macedonian, the majority of inhabitants of Northern
Greece commonly call themselves Greeks or “Greek Macedonians,” because
they are Greek citizens and also because they have chosen to belong to
the Greek nation. The use of the term “Macedonian” by ethnic Greeks is
either a geographical or an ethnic designation with the addition of the
prefix “Greek” in front of the word “Macedonian.” Only the members of
the Macedonian minority in Northern Greece use the term “Macedonian” as
an ethnic definition, as in the term “ethnic Macedonian,” to define
themselves. Those in Northern Greece who have chosen to belong to the
Greek nation use the term “Greek” or “Greek Macedonian,” and those who
belong to the Macedonian minority use the term “Macedonian” or “ethnic
Macedonian.”

The Greek government’s objections to the use of the term are on the
surface a technical problem, since the key to the so-called “Macedonian
issue” lies elsewhere. The problem in the region as far as the
Macedonian issue is concerned is, in essence, the refusal of the Balkan
countries, including Greece, to recognize the existence and to respect
the rights of the Macedonian nation. This of course also entails the
refusal to recognize the existence and the rights of the Macedonian
minority in Greece. The problem is not as the Greek government presents
it; it is not about cultural heritage, or that a portion of territorial
Greece bears the administrative name Province of Macedonia, or that the
neighboring state calls itself Republic of Macedonia. What the Greek
government stubbornly refuses to admit is that it does not agree with
the ethnic use of the terms “Macedonia,” or “Macedonian” because of the
existence of the Macedonian minority in Greece, whom (according to Greek
nationalists) could potentially rise up in the future with separatist
demands. This is the real problem for the Greek government, and not its
neighboring country’s name. However, if the Greek government admits
this, then it must also proceed with proper measures to recognize and
respect the rights of the minority. However, we believe that it is
precisely through this way and practice, as implemented in the
democratic countries of Europe, that peace and stability can be
strengthened in the region. The latter is certainly not achieved by
suppressing the rights of minorities such as the Macedonian minority, or
by questioning the right of a neighboring state to use the name Macedonia.

In our activities as political officials we have repeatedly proclaimed
that all Balkan borders must be respected as unalterable by the Balkan
states for the sake of the peace and prosperity of the region’s
inhabitants. Likewise, in our political practice throughout the years we
have endeavored through democratic and peaceful means to pressure the
Greek government to respect our rights, as would any civilized and
democratic state in today’s Europe. After all, today and in the world to
come, Europe is and will always be our common homeland.

We wish you success in your efforts.

Greece Refuses to Register Home of Macedonian Culture Despite European
Court Ruling

The European Court of Human Rights convicted Greece for a violation of
freedom of association in the case of Sideropoulos and others vs. Greece
in 1998 for failing to register the Home of Macedonian Culture. Despite
repeated attempts since then, the Home of Macedonian Culture (HMC) has
encountered numerous obstacles in trying to register the association. A
complete summary of the events surrounding Greece’s refusal to register
the Home can be found at the Greek Helsinki Monitor’s special webpage on
the subject:
www.greekhelsinki.gr/bhr/english/special_issues/home_of_macedonian_civilization.html


The HMC filed an application with the Single-Member Court of First
Instance in Florina in June 2003. After a lengthy delay, the court
issued its decision on December 19, 2003, rejecting the application by
the Home of Macedonian Culture and making the following outrageous claims:

‘the formulation of the associations’ articles is unclear and can cause
confusion regarding its real goal…The use of the term ‘Macedonian
culture’ intensifies this confusion by connecting this with a
non-existent language, described as ‘makedonski’…The recognition of such
an organization contains a direct danger to public order and provides an
opportunity for exploitation by foreign agents, who have tried from time
to time, unsuccessfully, to fabricate a historically non-existent
‘Macedonian nation’…For all the reasons mentioned above, we reject the
application.’

On January 20, 2005, the European Free Alliance protested to the
European Court of Human Rights in Strasbourg about ongoing human rights
abuses in Greece. Bernat Joan, the Catalan Euro-MP and Vice President of
the European Free Alliance is concerned about ongoing state backed
intolerance and discrimination particularly against the country's
Macedonian and Turkish minorities. This follows the recent Greek Supreme
Court ruling dissolving the Turkish Union of Xanthi and previous
refusals to register Turkish and Macedonian associations or to force
their dissolution in spite of earlier rulings against the Greek
authorities by the Strasbourg based European Court of Human Rights.
Bernat Joan MEP commented:

"I was very concerned to hear this news of ongoing intolerance by Greek
authorities. It seems to me a flagrant abuse of basic human rights, not
to mention treaty commitments. Greece has fallen foul of the European
Court of Human Rights in the past yet this seems to have had little
impact on the attitude of the Greek authorities.

They must recognise the right to peaceful and free association without
interference or oppression. It is ironic that at a time when the EU is
asking countries who want to join to implement the so-called 'Copenhagen
criteria' which includes the protection of minorities, some existing EU
members behave in such a way.

That's why I'm writing to the European Court of Human Rights to draw
their attention to these ongoing human rights abuses by Greek authorities."

On May 17, 2005, the Greek Member State Committee of EBLUL (European
Bureau for Lesser Used Languages) issued the following press release
calling on Greece to Respect ECHR's decision on the Home of Macedonian
Culture.

Naoussa (Negush) -- The Greek Member State Committee of the European
Bureau for Lesser Used Languages (EBLUL) witnessed with mixed emotions
the Prime Minister of Greece Mr. Kostas Karamanlis addressing the
Council of Europe's (CoE) Summit in Warsaw. Mr. Karamanlis stressed that
the main topic of his talks with his European counterparts was -- among
other things -- the big challenges of our time, such as the protection
of minorities.

While referring to the European Court of Human Rights (ECHR), he
specifically claimed that "..the disrespect and the refusal of certain
countries to immediately and unconditionally implement the Court's
rulings ... jeopardize not only its reliability but also human rights in
Europe."

No one could really disagree with the above. However, for yet again, a
Greek state official of the highest level has made a selective remark to
the so- called "Loizidou Case". In other words, indirectly but at the
same time plainly accusing Turkey for putting in a 2-year reprieve of
its conviction on the above case from the ECHR.

Mr. Karamanlis must have forgotten or ignored that for almost 7 years
now Greece remains stubbornly incompliant to a similar ECHR ruling that
obligates the Greek state to register a purely cultural organization
(Home of Macedonian Culture/Dom Na Makedonskata Kultura).

Isn't this attitude of "disrespect" and "refusal" regarding the
immediate implementation of an ECHR decision far more glaring than the
"Loizidou Case"? Doesn't it not also jeopardize the reliability of the
Court and violate human rights?

The Greek Member State Committee of the European Bureau for Lesser Used
Languages calls on Mr. Karamanlis to simply carry into effect what he
categorically stated. To immediately and unconditionally respect ECHR's
decisions regarding Greece, contributing at the same time to the
enhancement of its role that he aims too.

EBLUL additionally urges Mr. Karamanlis to encourage the ratification
and implementation of CoE's Framework Conventions that Greece signed a
long time ago, if he truly wants what he expressed before the Summit in
the most articulate way: the protection of minorities, human rights and
democratic principles.

Athanasios Parisis
President of GMSC of EBLUL

Greek Government Harassment of Rainbow/Vinozhito

Greek Government Harassment of Rainbow/Vinozhito The Rainbow Party has
been the subject of attacks, both verbal and physical, by the Greek
public, media and even government officials. The Rainbow Party hung a
bilingual sign in Macedonian and Greek outside their office in
Lerin/Florina in 1995, which caused a huge uproar in the city. Greek
nationalists, led by the mayor of Florina, attacked and destroyed the
office. Four members of Rainbow were subsequently put on trial for
"causing and inciting mutual hatred among the citizens" under Article
192 of the Greek Penal Code. Rainbow was essentially put on trial for
publicly using their mother tongue. Following worldwide condemnation of
the trial, the Rainbow members were finally acquitted in 1998. However,
the perpetrators of the crime were never charged and Rainbow has
initiated a European Court of Human Rights case against them.

Greek media and government officials constantly refer to Rainbow members
as “agents of Skopje”, “separatists” and “enemies of Greece.” Rainbow
does not receive coverage in the media when participating in elections
and instead get slandered at every opportunity.

The following are questions posed by Greek M.E.P. Mr. Stavros Xarhakos
to the European Parliament on March 19, 2003. The submission by Mr.
Xarhakos was titled, “EBLUL and the Systematic Defamation of a Member of
the E.U.”

“It is well known that in Greece democratic freedoms and cultural
difference are fully protected in law. This is the context in which the
Muslim minority lives in Greek Thrace … its mosques built and restored
with money from the Greek state’. ‘What are the activities of EBLUL in
countries where the cultural identity of minorities is suppressed, as is
the case, for example, with the Greeks … in Turkey?’

‘Similar freedom is enjoyed by the other minority groups, however few
they may be, such as the small Slav-speaking community in the region of
Florina, which has set up a political party that enjoys complete freedom
of action (it has offices, newspapers, is free to disseminate its ideas
and does not fail to abuse Greece and the Greeks)’.

‘Does the Commission (which appears to provide financial support for the
activities of the EBLUL office) share the historically groundless views
of M. Brezigar concerning the alleged existence of a ‘Macedonian’
language?’

The Rise of Neo-Nazism in Greece

Wiesenthal Centre to Greek Prime Minister: "Failure to Stop Nazi
Olympics Validates Our Onging Travel Advisory"

Paris, 2 September 2005

Source: http://www.wiesenthal.com

In a letter to Greek Prime Minister Konstantinos Karamanlis, the
Wiesenthal Centre's Director for International Affairs, Dr Shimon
Samuels, noted that "on 16-18 September, Greece will receive extreme
right leaders from across Europe, along with their neo-Nazi/ Skinhead
retinue - a so-called 'First Pan-European youth camp' billed as a
self-styled three day "hate-festival" and ideological recruitment
seminar in the Peloponnese region of 'Hellas, the Land of Heroes.' "

Samuels added that, "hosted by the Greek Chryssi Avgi (Golden Dawn), the
co-organizers include the German NPD, the Italian Forza Nuova, and
Spain's Falange", pointing to the comment in Golden Dawn's June
newssheet, "Resistance and Counterattack", that calls World War Two "a
civil conflict in which the European nations slaughtered one another,
with greater losses for both sides than the 'millions' of ever
persecuted crooked noses from Judea."

The letter identified as scheduled speakers NPD chief Udo Voigt and
Forza Nuova's Roberto Fiore, who are to set the anti-Muslim tone with
the slogan "Turkey Out of Europe". The organizer's website
(www.euro-fest.tk) invites racist music groups and their fans from
across the continent for a "Hatewave Festival Concert" coordinated by
"White power 2005".

The letter also stressed that "for the last three years, our Centre has
appealed to your authorities to condemn and penalize the burgeoning
level of antisemitic media invective and desecration of Jewish
cemeteries and Holocaust memorials across Greece. The deafening silence
of the response resulted in our Travel Advisory recommending that Jewish
travelers to your country take extreme precautions."

Samuels referred to his participation, on 18 September 2004, in the ECRI
(European Commission Against Racism and Intolerance) Athens Round Table
on Racism and Xenophobia in Greece, describing the ECRI Report testimony
from Macedonian, Albanian, Turkish, Pakistani and Roma victims of racial
discrimination as a "disturbing context to our own inventory of
antisemitism". The Centre suggested that "the choice of Greece for this
Nazi/ Fascist assembly seems hardly a coincidence. Years of tolerance
for hate have fertilized the ground for their welcome."

Samuels saluted a 31 August meeting of sixty anti-racists in Kalamata,
declaring that, "our over 400,000 worldwide membership stands in
solidarity with these trade unionists, school teachers and local
activists, determined to keep the Peloponnese free from this pestilence".

The Centre called on the Prime Minister "to prevent this profanation of
the sixtieth anniversary of the end of the Holocaust, and to draw its
lessons by ensuring Greek commitments to the European Union, the Council
of Europe and the OSCE, to prosecute all incitement to hatred." The
letter concluded, "it is not too late to stop Europe's Nazi Olympics on
Greek soil; failure to do so will render the Wiesenthal Centre's ongoing
Travel Advisory ever more valid."

For further information, please contact Dr. Samuels at +33 6 09 77 01 58

Jewish Groups Protest Upcoming Neo-Nazi Meeting in Greece

Following articles in the Greek mainstream dailies "Ta Nea" (May 19 and
26, 2005) and "To Vima" (May 27, 2005), according to which a European
neo-Nazi gathering will be held in Peloponnese (Greece), from September
16 to 18, 2005, the Central Board of Jewish Communities in Greece
addressed letters of protest to the Greek Public Order and Justice
Ministers, asking the Greek Government not to give permission to a
neo-Nazi meeting to take place on Greek soil.

The meeting, which is publishised in the Internet (www.euro-fest.tk), is
organized by the Greek extremist, neo-Nazi group "Chrissi Avgi" (Golden
Dawn), the German NPD, the Italian Forza Nuova and the Spanish "La
Fallange". Udo Voigt (President of NPD), Nikos Mihaloliakos (Leader of
Golden Dawn), and Roberto Fiore (President of Forza Nuova) will address
the meeting. According to the Greek Press, the meeting will be also
attended by representatives of neo-Nazi and fascist organizations from
Hungary, the USA, Great Britain, Belgium, France, Romania, Slovakia,
Serbia-Montenegro, Sweden, Poland, Austria, the Netherlands and the
Czech Republic.

The Greek Jewry fiercely condemns this neo-Nazi meeting and asks for the
Greek Government's intervention in order to prevent it from taking place
in Greece.

Athens, May 31, 2005
Central Board of Jewish Communities in Greece
Web Site: http://www.kis.gr
E-Mail: ***@hellasnet.gr

Greek Neo-Nazis Threaten Macedonian Minority Party (Rainbow/Vinozhito)

Rainbow/Vinozhito, the political party of the Macedonian minority in
Greece, was forced to cancel its congress twice because of threats
received from Greek Neo-Nazi organizations. Vinozhito is a legal
political party in Greece and did not receive any guarantees of security
by Greek police, nor did the Greek government intervene despite repeated
appeals by Vinozhito and the European Free Alliance in the European
Parliament (of which Vinozhito is a member). Please see
www.mhrmc.ca/issues/congress.html for the letters ignored by the Greek
government and other issues surrounding the congress. No Greek media or
politicians denounced the threats by the Neo-Nazi organizations.
Moreover, several media outlets actually praised the Neo-Nazi threats!
For photographs of the demonstrations and the newspaper articles please
visit the link above. Following are examples of Greece’s racist
advertising against its Macedonian minority:

“Anti-Greek Provocation in Edessa: On November 30, 2003, there will be a
congress of filoskopjans in Edessa. One by one events are published
which create a web that threatens to destroy everything national in our
country. (Golden Dawn – November 13, 2003)

“We will oppose it, all of those who are Greek must demonstrate Sunday,
7th December at 11:00am. They must be in Edessa to put an end to the
propaganda of ‘Rainbow’. All together with one voice yell loudly
‘Macedonia is one and it is Greek’” (Golden Dawn, Dec.4, 2003)

“Stop the Provocation by the Filoskopjans: The foreign interests of
"protectors" are to be found here from these marked internal agents of
every kind who are anti-Greek and filoskopjan and work to create by
force an issue of a skopjan minority in our Macedonia. We must react now
because tomorrow will be too late. We do not forget the traitors or
those who work for foreign interests. We cannot accept the sellout of
Macedonia to the Slavo-skopjans. We claim national dignity. No
compromise of any kind for our Macedonia. Rally Sunday, December 7th,
2003 at 11:00 AM In Central Edessa. Everyone Must Be There! (Golden
Dawn, December 4, 2003)

In its press release of December 8, 2003, the Rainbow Party describes
the events surrounding the postponement of its Congress:

“The guilty silence of competent authorities also raises reasonable
questions and so is the refusal of local party representatives to
condemn those phenomena of racist and Neonazist behavior in the city of
Edessa. Within the context of those incidents, the Congress Organizing
Committee decided to postpone the event, taking into consideration
public safety, after authorities failed to guarantee the security of the
event, since holding the event could potentially cause friction and
spark off fights.

This is the situation in Greece, at the dawn of year 2004. Most
probably, Greece is only European country where Neonazism is a lawful
political parole, where racism, anti-Semitism, xenophobia and
discrimination against minority groups are frequent, making part of
everyday reality, both at the level of society and at the level of
political parole and implementation. This is the situation in Greece,
the country hosting the 2004 Olympic Games, promoting rather
hypocritically the motto “for one single culture of all cultures”; a
country member of the European Union that vigorously refuses to ratify
the Council of Europe Convention-Framework on Minority Rights; a country
that refers to the members of Turkish minority as “Muslims” and does not
recognize the existence of a Macedonian minority; a country that refuses
to sign the Charter for Regional or Minority Languages, while only
discussing the rights of Greeks in Istanbul / Konstandinoupoli and
Southern Albania.”

Bartlomiej Swiderek of the European Free Alliance made the following
conclusion after a visit to Greece on December 11, 2003:

“The Rainbow Party --Vinozhito, which has excellent links with minority
groups and human rights organisations in Greece copes with several
problems most of them linked with a lack of official recognition of the
Macedonian national minority in Greece. I have an impression that any
activity of the party, however peaceful, causes strong reactions from
the far-right groups and a part of Greek society very much linked to the
myth of a "Hellenic purity of the country" and scared of a
"Slavo-Turko-European" plot directed against Greece.

It really strikes me that the congress of a democratic and legal party
had to be cancelled for security reasons, while the far right groups can
organise their events without any problems. It is noteworthy, that
openly Nazi organisations like the mentioned "Golden Dawn" is legal in
Greece and can disrupt political activities of a minority party. I
suggest that EFA monitors developments in Greece and gives all necessary
assistance to the Rainbow-Vinozhito party in their activities.”

The Rainbow Party was finally able to hold their Congress on May 30,
2004. Following are excerpts from their press release:

30 May 2004 marked the successful conclusion of the 1st Congress of the
Rainbow Party, which as of 26 March 2004 is a founding member of the
European Free Alliance (EFA). Henceforth, it will participate in the
Greek political arena with the name European Free Alliance-Rainbow
(Evropa?ki Eleftheri Symmahia-Ouranio Toxo / Evropska Slobodna
Alijanca-Vinozhito). Elections were held for the new Central Council,
composed of twenty-four (24) members, and for the expanded Political
Secretariat, composed of nine (9) members. On behalf of the Central
Council and the party members, the new Political Secretariat wishes to
commend the Greek government, the Hellenic Police Authorities in
Thessaloniki, and Prime Minister Konstantinos Karamanlis, personally,
for granting the request of our party president Nelly Maes and taking
all the necessary measures to protect the Congress participants,
particularly our European guests, and facilitate its smooth proceedings.
A jarring note, however, in the behavior of the authorities was the Nea
Demokratia party deputy and current Prefect of Thessaloniki, Panayiotis
Psomiades, who prior to the Congress publicly stated inter alia that:
“[It] is a flagrant violation of every principle of national dignity,
national consciousness and minimum sense of national pride that our city
agreed to host a Congress organized by Rainbow, an agency known for its
anti-national views, views that directly trigger our national reflexes
and offend Hellenic sensibilities everywhere on earth, particularly
those of Macedonians. For these reasons we deem these known circles and
their delegates undesirable in Thessaloniki.” We believe that the
Prefect’s statements gave neo-nazi elements the green light to stage
violent demonstrations. These remarks were an affront to the city’s
democratically minded citizens, the Prefect’s own faction, as well as
our country’s Prime Minister. EFA-Rainbow regrets that a member state of
the European Union was forced to take extreme security measures to
protect the proceedings of a Congress of a legally recognized European
political party such as ours. We also regret that, with very few
exceptions (e.g. the NGO Greek Helsinki Monitor and the leftist party
AEKA-Thessaloniki), no other political parties or organizations took a
public stand against Mr. Psomiades’ statements and the violent protests
by neo-nazi elements. This is proof of the democratic deficit in Greece.
We are also distressed by the fact that Greece is the only country in
the EU where neo-nazism, under the guise of patriotism, is a legitimate
form of political expression. We hereby state our willingness to put our
political efforts towards assisting in the broader democratization and
Europeanization of Greece. We wish to add our presence by joining the
political race and the process of shaping a United Europe as our common
homeland. We therefore ask voters to support our candidates in the
upcoming European Parliamentary elections on 13 June 2004.

Macedonian Political Refugees Denied Entry into Greece

MHRMI Condemns Greece's Continued Blacklisting of Ethnic Macedonians

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE: SEPTEMBER 2, 2005

Macedonian Human Rights Movement International (MHRMI) condemns Greece’s
continued blacklisting of ethnic Macedonian human rights activists and
political refugees.

Gjorgi Plukovski, a Canadian citizen of Macedonian descent, born in
Harala, Kastoria, Greece (Pozdivishta, Kostur in Macedonian) was denied
entry into Greece when attempting to enter from the Republic of
Macedonia on August 4, 2005, and given a document by border officials
stating that he “is considered to be a threat to public order, internal
security, public health or the international relations of one or more of
the Member States of the European Union”. (For a copy of this document
see www.mhrmi.org/press/05/plukovski.pdf)

Mr. Plukovski was rejected at the Greek border despite the fact that he
had entered Greece by way of Italy a month earlier, on July 6, 2005 and
remained in Greece until July 24, 2005. If Mr. Plukovski were truly a
“threat to internal security”, Greece would share its blacklist with
other Schengen Treaty member states to ensure that he is unable to enter
any such states. However, Greece refuses to admit that its blacklist
consists merely of ethnic Macedonians who publicly call for Greece to
recognize its significant ethnic Macedonian minority and respect their
human rights.

“It is preposterous that Macedonian political refugees are able to enter
Greece through countries such as Italy and Austria, but cannot enter
from the Republic of Macedonia. A large number live in the Republic of
Macedonia and have never been able to visit their birthplaces, even to
attend funerals for family members. Greece must be forced to explain its
racist behavior and immediately put an end to it.” Plukovski stated.

Macedonian Human Rights Movement International calls on the
international community to demand that Greece end its racist and
xenophobic policy of discriminating against individuals of Macedonian
ethnicity. MHRMI also calls on Greece to address immediately the issue
of the thousands of Macedonian refugees from the Greek Civil War who
were specifically excluded from the general amnesty of 1982 because they
were not “Greek by genus”. MHRMI specifically asks that the EU end its
hypocrisy in demanding that new member states respect human rights
standards while ignoring human rights violations within the EU.

Rainbow-Vinozhito Denounces Continuing Denaturalization of the Ethnic
Macedonians of Greece

Greek Authorities Refuse Entry to George Mishalis (an Ethnic Macedonian)
to Attend his Father's Funeral

May 12, 2005 - Rainbow-Vinozhito Press Release

www.florina.org

The Greek government continues to denaturalize members of its Macedonian
minority who as economic immigrants reside mainly in transoceanic
countries. This discriminatory practice has been taking place for the
last several decades.

Greek Authorities selectively implement law 3370, article 20 par. 1G
(Greek law of Citizenship), targeting ethnic Macedonians (economic
immigrants) who are active as members of Macedonian associations abroad
and who dare express their Macedonian cultural, linguistic and national
identity. Something they are not permitted to do in Greece.

Ethnic Macedonians from Greece are informed about their denaturalization
only when they try to enter Greece temporarily or for repatriation.
Denaturalized individuals are at the same time declared undesirable in
Greece (persona non grata) and no entrance to the country of their birth
is allowed, even for humanitarian reasons.

Recently (May 7th, 2005) Mr. George Mishalis tried to enter Greece in
order to attend his father's funeral in his native village Meliti
(Voshtarani) in Florina (Lerin). For the last several years, Mr Mishalis
has been living and working in Melbourne, Australia.

Greek border authorities prohibited his entry, according to the
above-mentioned decision.

It is truly unfortunate that in the year 2005 and in a so-called modern
European country like Greece an ethnic Macedonian born in Greece still
cannot attend a relative's funeral unless they falsify their identity
and declare themselves as "Greeks by birth".

EFA-Rainbow was also recently informed about the denaturalization of
another Macedonian. Mr. Chris Gagatsis was declared "undesirable" in
Greece according to the same law (3370 article 20 par. 1G). Mr.
Gagatsis' place of birth is the village of Akrita (Bouf) in the Florina
(Lerin) region.

Over the past several decades successive Greek Governments have refused
to give any data on the number of denaturalized Macedonians. The victims
of this policy are simply notified about it upon their arrival at the
Greek border, exactly as it happened in the two cases mentioned above.

This is an inhuman and racially discriminatory policy against George
Mishalis and Chris Gagatsis and all other Macedonian economic
immigrants. This same policy is also applied to the thousands of
Macedonian political refugees who fled their villages as children during
the Greek Civil War (1946-1949**).

Greece's continuous refusal to acknowledge its Macedonian minority and
its systemic discrimination in terms of their ethnic, cultural and
linguistic rights again highlight the serious democratic deficit in Greece.

According to Greek authorities there is no such thing as an ethnic
Macedonian minority in the country. If this is the case then we can only
wonder who the target of these racist measures is?

EFA-Rainbow denounces Greece's continuous racist and inhuman
mistreatment of its ethnic Macedonian minority and intends to make the
above incidents known to the international organizations involved in the
protection of Human Rights.

EFA-Rainbow also calls upon all Greek democrats to support our efforts
to establish a truly democratic and European Greece.

The Political Secretariat

Third World Reunion of Macedonian Child Refugees

On June 8, 2003, Greek Deputy Foreign Minister, Andreas Loverdos, made
an historic announcement pledging the free return of Macedonian
political refugees, evacuated from Greece as children during the Greek
Civil War of 1946-1949. The child refugees (Detsa Begaltsi) have
consistently been denied entry into Greece simply because they assert
their Macedonian ethnic identity. They were excluded from the 1982 law
that allowed the free return of political refugees that were “Greek by
genus”. Answering a question on the free visit of "non-ethnic Greek"
political refugees, Mr. Loverdos, stated that "since we have overcome
all these problems of the past and of the civil war... we want to
overcome this vestige too sooner rather than later...during this summer."

The events that followed Loverdos’ “historic” announcement were
indicative of a country that views itself as a Western democracy but
consistently proves itself to be the very antithesis of one. Following a
nationalistic uproar by a large segment of Greek society, who were
worried that the political refugees would “incite” the local Macedonian
population into a heightened sense of nationalism, the Greek government
reversed its decision and chose to impede the reunion in any way
possible. It then proceeded to announce, on July 3, 2003 that the
political refugees will be allowed to enter the country from August 10
to October 30, and would only be allowed to stay for 20 days. The date
of the Detsa Begaltsi's Third World Reunion was well-publicized and was
originally going to take place from July 15-20, 2003. The Greek
government's announcement forced the organizers to reschedule the event
to August 10-15, which caused a large number of political refugees,
particularly from Canada, the United States, and Australia, to miss the
event as they originally planned to enter Greece before July 10.

It is remarkable that Greece, a European Union country, would reverse a
humanitarian decision in favour of state-sponsored racism that has been
widely endorsed in Greece.

Out of the people who tried to enter Greece for the reunion, it is
estimated that approximately two hundred Macedonians were denied entry
into Greece during the summer of 2003.

On July 20, 2003, Australian citizen Janko Kalinchev, born in the
village of Ovcharani (Meliti in Greek), and Canadian citizen Georgi
Kizovski, born in Gabresh (Gavros), attempted to enter Greece from the
Republic of Macedonia in order to visit their birthplaces. However,
Greek border officials denied them entry and refused to give them an
explanation, instead saying that they were denied entry for "other
reasons".

According to Mr. Kizovski, "The Greek government keeps a blacklist of
people who are active in Macedonian organizations abroad and who openly
declare themselves as Macedonian. We were obviously returned at the
border because of our membership in the Association of Refugee Children
from the Aegean Part of Macedonia (Detsa Begaltsi) in Australia and
Canada." Greek officials have publicly stated that 80 Macedonian
activists living abroad are on a “blacklist”. In its press release of
August 10, 2003, the Greek Helsinki Monitor stated,

“Preventing their entrance on grounds of their activism directly
contravenes the special UN, OSCE, Council of Europe and EU provisions
for the state's responsibility to respect and even defend NGOs and human
rights activists.”

Macedonian Orthodox Church and Father Nikodim Tsarknias

Father Nikodim Tsarknias has been harassed, beaten, fined, jailed and
expelled from the Greek Orthodox Church for advocating human rights for
the Macedonian minority in Greece. He has also been the subject of
several court cases, in which he has been found guilty in absentia, for
promoting Macedonian human rights. He has started building a Macedonian
Orthodox Church in the city of Sobotsko (Aridea in Greek) and is holding
religious service in the Macedonian language there every Sunday. Because
of this, he was sentenced to three months in prison on May 11, 2004 by
the Aridea Criminal Court of First Instance on charges of establishing
and operating a church without authorization. For more information,
please see the press release issued by Father Tsarknias
(www.mhrmc.ca/news/04/tsarknias.html) and the US State Department’s 2004
International Religious Freedom Report
(www.mhrmc.ca/news/04/statedept_religious.html)

Report on Greece’s Compliance With the International Covenant on Civil
and Political Rights

The following are excerpts from the Greek Helsinki Monitor (GHM) and
Minority Rights Group-Greece’s (MRG-G) report that was submitted to the
United Nations’ Human Rights Committee (HRC) as a contribution to the
consideration of the Initial Report of Greece (CCPR/C/GRC/2004/1) during
the HRC’s 83rd Session (14 March – 1 April 2005). It addresses mainly
HRC’s List of Issues on Greece (CCPR/C/83/L/GRC/Rev. 1).

Peaceful Assembly and Freedom on Association (Articles 21 and 22)

I-19. Please comment on the alleged non-registration of associations
which include the words “Macedonian” or “Turkish”.

GHM & MRG-G Contribution

There are currently no associations in Greece operating legally with
their names including the words “Macedonian” or “Turkish” to reflect the
ethnic or national identity of their members. This situation reflects
the refusal of Greece to acknowledge the presence of a Macedonia and a
Turkish minority in its territory.

There is only one (ethnic) Macedonian association that attempted to
register with the courts, the “Home of Macedonian Civilization” (Stegi
Makedonikou Politismou). It was originally denied registration as an
organization by the Greek courts, between 1990-1994. Its appeal to the
European Court of Human Rights (ECHR) was successful as, on 10 July
1998, Greece was cited for the violation of article 11 on freedom of
association.

However, the “Home of Macedonian Civilization” has not been able to
register for over six years. All lawyers of Florina (where the “Stegi”
has its seat) had initially repeatedly refused to take up the case.
While courts had twice refused the association’s request to appoint a
lawyer, despite Greece’s report to the Committee of Ministers of the
Council of Europe indicating that courts had been instructed to execute
the judgment, and the Ombudsman’s written opinion that there is “enough
evidence that ‘no lawyer is found’”. Only following the sustained
pressure by the Greek Ombudsman, a lawyer was finally appointed in
February 2002.

The new application was again rejected in December 2003, with the
following justification:

“The word ‘Macedonian’ – defining the culture to be preserved – implies
that this culture is something particular and self-contained, so that it
is not clear whether the word is being used in its historical sense to
refer to an integral part of Greek civilisation with its local
specificities, or in its geographical sense, in which case it is left
undefined which part of the broader region of Macedonia is meant, as its
territory took shape after the Balkan Wars. This lack of clarity is not
only not removed by the name of the association, which insists on the
indiscriminate use of the term, but is in fact exacerbated by the
association of this culture with a non-existent language, claimed to be
‘Macedonian’, despite the fact that in the geographical area of
Macedonia it is the Greek language which is spoken, except by a small
portion of the population, which also speaks – in addition to Greek – an
idiom which is essentially Slavic. Thus the confusion caused by the
general use of the terms Macedonia and Macedonian, without distinction
as to geographical or historical reference – a confusion existing in the
mind of the states with which the association will be dealing, in
pursuit of its objective through demarches to and collaboration with
these states, and in the mind of persons interested in participating in
the work of the association in pursuit of this objective – contains a
direct danger to public order and provides an opportunity for
exploitation by external agents who have tried from time to time,
unsuccessfully, to create a historically non-existent “Macedonian
nation”. It is therefore our decision, in the light of the above, that
the application be rejected.”

The applicants’ appeal was filed in September 2004 in Florina, but
lawyers in Kozani, seat of the competent Appeal Court, had refused to
take up the case through the end of January 2005.

Right to Take Part in Public Affairs; Protection of National Minorities
(Articles 25, 26 and 27)

I-21. Please explain whether the requirements for the naturalisation of
non-citizens provided by law no. 2910/2001 differ depending on whether
the person is of Greek origin.

GHM & MRG-G Contribution

ECRI expressed indeed a related concern:

“The distinction between non-citizens of Greek origin and other
non-citizens

60. ECRI notes that in a number of spheres Greek law draws a distinction
between non-citizens of Greek origin (sometimes called “homogeneis”) and
non-citizens of another origin (sometimes called “allogeneis”). This
difference in treatment generally takes the form of a privileged status
for persons of Greek origin.

61. For example, in 1982 a regulation permitted the return to Greece of
people having fled the country during the 1946-1949 civil war, together
with their families. However, this regulation applied solely to persons
“of Greek origin”, thus excluding persons of non-Greek, and particularly
Macedonian, origin who had nonetheless left Greece under the same
conditions.

62. The formalities for naturalising non-citizens provided by law no.
2910/2001 on foreigners’ entry to and residence on Greek territory,
acquisition of citizenship and other provisions are very different
depending on whether or not the person is of Greek origin. For instance,
the condition of having resided for 10 years in Greece before becoming
eligible for naturalisation does not apply to persons of Greek origin.
Nor are they required to pay the 1,500 euros fee for processing the
application.

Recommendations:

65. Considering that the creation of an intermediate “non-citizen of
Greek origin” status between that of Greek citizen and non-citizen not
of Greek origin might cause discrimination based on ethnic origin, ECRI
strongly recommends to the Greek authorities to reconsider the
foundations and the implications of their policy in this respect. It
must be ensured that non-citizens who are not of Greek origin can
receive the same advantages as non-citizens of Greek origin.”

GHM & MRG-G would like to add a significant clarification. Even among
“homogeneis” the state differentiates, with those originating from the
former Soviet Union successor states having more rights than those
originating from Albania. As the Ombudsman has stated in reviewing Law
2910/2001, “homogeneis” from the former Soviet Union receive special
“homogeneis” identity documents and Greek citizenship upon
acknowledgment of their Greek origins, even if they have not become
residents of Greece. “Homogeneis” from Albania on the other hand receive
the “homogeneis” identity documents only if they reside in Greece; while
they can apply for Greek citizenship only through the naturalization
procedure and such applications are not often approved. Following the
revision of the Greek citizenship code in November 2004, the special
procedure to promptly grant citizenship to the “homogeneis” from the
former Soviet Union was codified in article 15.

I-22. According to information before the Committee, although there is
only one officially recognized minority in Greece (para 895 of the
report), there are other ethnic groups seeking that status. What
measures are being taken by the State Party to identify, and protect the
rights of, ethnic groups in the State party’s territory? What is the
percentage participation of minorities (other than the Muslim minority
referred to in para 906 of the report) in the public service and at all
levels of Greek government?

GHM & MRG-G Contribution

ECRI summarizes very well the situation of the minorities in Greece:

“Macedonians and other minority groups

80. In its second report, ECRI encouraged the authorities to ensure that
all groups in Greece, Macedonians and Turks included, could exercise
their rights to freedom of association and freedom of expression in
accordance with international legal standards.

81. ECRI notes that the Greek authorities are more ready to recognise
the existence of minority groups in Greece, such as the Pomaks or the
Roma, including the fact that certain members of these groups have a
native language other than Greek. However, other groups still encounter
difficulties, the Macedonians and Turks for example. Even today, persons
wishing to express their Macedonian, Turkish or other identity incur the
hostility of the population. They are targets of prejudices and
stereotypes, and sometimes face discrimination, especially in the labour
market. In the Sidiropoulos and others v. Greece judgment of 10 July
1998, the European Court of Human Rights found that the refusal to
register the association “Home of Macedonian Civilisation” constituted
an interference with the freedom of association as guaranteed by Article
11 of the European Convention on Human Rights. ECRI deplores the fact
that, five years after the decision of the European Court of Human
Rights, this association has still not been registered despite the
repeated applications made by its members. ECRI notes that similar cases
are currently before the Greek courts concerning registration of
associations whose title includes the adjective “Turkish”.

82. ECRI stresses that the authorities took a first positive step on the
path of reconciliation by opening their borders for a few days during
the summer of 2003 to persons of Macedonian origin compelled to leave
Greece in the civil war when most were only children. ECRI nevertheless
deplores the fact that persons holding a passport in which the name of
their birthplace in Greece was indicated in the Macedonian and not the
Greek form were refused entry to Greek territory.

83. ECRI notes that representatives of the Macedonian community have
asked the authorities to recognise their right to self-identification,
as well as the existence of a Macedonian national minority in Greece.
They have also called for the ratification of the Framework Convention
for the Protection of National Minorities and of the European Charter
for Regional or Minority Languages, considering that this step could
improve their situation in Greece .

Recommendations:

84. ECRI encourages the Greek authorities to take further steps toward
the recognition of the freedom of association and expression of members
of the Macedonian and Turkish communities living in Greece. It welcomes
the gesture of reconciliation made by the Greek authorities towards the
ethnic Macedonian refugees from the civil war, and strongly encourages
them to proceed further in this direction in a non-discriminatory way.

85. ECRI also recommends that the Greek authorities closely examine the
allegations of discrimination and intolerant acts against Macedonians,
Turks and others, and, if appropriate, take measures to punish such acts.

86. ECRI strongly recommends the Greek authorities to open a dialogue
with the Macedonians’ representatives in order to find a solution to the
tensions between this group and the authorities, as well as between it
and the population at large, so that co-existence with mutual respect
may be achieved in everyone’s interests.

FUEN Resolution Calling for Human Rights for the Macedonian Minority in
Greece

50th FUEN-Congress of Nationalities
4th - 8th May 2005
Bucharest-Romania

Rainbow/Vinozhito Press Release
www.florina.org

Florina / Lerin 9.5.2005

An EFA-Rainbow delegation participated at the 50th FUEN-Congress of
Nationalities, held in Bucharest, Romania. As an active member of FUEN,
EFA –Rainbow expressed its views about the situation of the Macedonian
minority in Greece and contributed in the formation and approval of the
Congress’ main resolution.

The following abstracts from the resolution of FUEN Assembly of
Delegates refer specifically to this issue: FUEN calls for:

1. The recognition of the Macedonian minority.

2. The recognition of the Macedonian language as a minority language and
to introduce it into the elementary and to secondary educational system
in the regions where it is widely used. The establishment of a chair at
university level,

dedicated to the Macedonian language. Additionally, the recognition of
cultural organisations like the „Home of Macedonian Culture“
(registration pending for more than 15 years, despite ruling of the
European Court for Human Rights).

3. The introduction of the Macedonian language into the state Mass Media.

4. The unconditional and free entrance into Greece for all political
refugees of Macedonian origin. Additionally, the ability to claim
back/buy property as well as to get back their citizenship, which was
taken from thousands of Macedonians during the civil war in Greece
(1945–49).

5. The ratification of the Framework Convention for the Protection of
National Minorities of the Council of Europe as well as the
implementation of all the international conventions and standards from
the UN, OSCE, Council of Europe concerning the rights of national
minorities.

6. The return of citizenship to the Macedonian emigrants who mostly live
in Australia and Canada. This was revoked due to the public expression
of their Macedonian identity.

*Please find the full text of main resolution at :
www.fuen.org/pages/english/e_5c_2002.html

The Press Office

Conclusion

Macedonian Human Rights Movement International calls on the
international community to apply pressure on Greece to immediately
recognize its large Macedonian minority and grant it the human rights
that it is guaranteed by all international human rights conventions.
MHRMI specifically asks that the European Union end its hypocrisy in
demanding that new member states respect human rights standards while
ignoring human rights violations within the EU.

Bill Nicholov, President
Macedonian Human Rights Movement International
Address: 157 Adelaide St. West, Suite 434, Toronto, Canada M5H 4E7
Tel: 416-850-7125 Fax: 416-850-7127
e-mail: ***@mhrmi.org website: www.mhrmi.org

Contact Information for Macedonian Human Rights Organizations

For more information, please contact Macedonian Human Rights Movement
International or the following organizations of Macedonians in Greece:

Rainbow Party/Vinozhito
Stephanou Dragoumi 11
PO Box 51, 53100 Florina, Greece
Tel/Fax: ++ 23850 46548
Email: ***@florina.org
Website: www.florina.org

Home of Macedonian Culture
Stephanou Dragoumi 11
PO Box 51, 53100 Florina, Greece
Tel/Fax: ++ 23850 46548

European Bureau for Lesser Used Languages - Greece
Greek Member State Committee of EBLUL
Parisis Athanasios
Mazaraki 7a 59200 Naousa/Negush - Greece
Telefon: ++306972844412
E-mail: ***@nao.forthnet.gr

Father Nikodim Tsarknias
Aegeas Sophias 13
Aridea, Pellas, 58400 Greece
Tel: ++23840 23271
Fax: ++23840 21778
Post by Panayiotis
======================================
"And Macedonia, of course, is a part of Greece."
(Strabo VII, Frg. 9 [Loeb, H.L. Jones])
======================================
Post by Moo Moo MhuttsAss
This be my fave
----------------------
Hey KKTC, check the confused little Romanians muddled head out here....
He starts with "FUCKING TURK LIAR ! " so he's pretty certain that I'm
in fact a TURK.....
Moo,
So much about being a Turk. You decline.
How about the rest of the epithets?
Panayiotis
Panayiotis
2005-10-08 07:52:55 UTC
Permalink
======================================
"And Macedonia, of course, is a part of Greece."
(Strabo VII, Frg. 9 [Loeb, H.L. Jones])
======================================
Post by u***@domain.invalid
Joto your comment
Ilinden,
1. When you are refering to this minority of 20.000 out of 11.500.000,
please do not call them Macedonians but Slavomacedonians. It is an insult
for me and the 2.500.000 citizens of Greek Macedonia.
2. I have been born in Thessaloniki and my family roots can be traced at
least two centuries back. If they are Macedonians, then what are we the
inhabitants of Thessaloniki?
3. The UN negotiator, Mr. Nimetz, made the following proposal. Although we
do not fully agree with his full plan, the paragraph below is a slap on your
face. No Macedonia is "occupied" by Greece. We Macedonian Greeks enjoy all
priviledges enjoyed by the Thessalians, Peloponnesians, Cretans, Thracians,
Epirotes, Pontians etc. etc. Read the paragraph below and REPENT. Time is
running out for you.

“As yet another example, the Republika Makedonija-Skopje
must recognize that there is an administrative province in Greece with
the name “Greek Macedonia” (and not Macedonia of the Aegean or Aegean
Macedonia under Greece) and that those who live in Greek Macedonia
commonly define themselves as Greek Macedonians in the Greek regional
and cultural sense of the name, and that such names have to be used and
respected".
4. Your Prime Minister Buckovski (?) got the message. It's time you catch
the meaning of his message.

As always,
Panayiotis
++
2005-10-11 08:54:03 UTC
Permalink
For those who don't read any Greek, I should explain that

Moo Moo MhuttsAss wrote a rather insulting title which displays his
racism and ignorance, both of which are curable. He has called a poster
(himself regretable) a "vile Vlach Gypsy" Neither Vlachs or Roma (more
proper name are people to be despised, neither should these ethnicities
be used as epithets. Combining bathroom and homosexual references as
well as heritage and ethnic slurs, the essential pre-adolescent is revealed.
Post by Moo Moo MhuttsAss
This be my fave
----------------------
Hey KKTC, check the confused little Romanians muddled head out here....
He starts with "FUCKING TURK LIAR ! " so he's pretty certain that I'm
in fact a TURK.....
He continues on to say "But you are a Turk, so no wonder..." by this
time ASSERTING his FIRM, UNSHAKABLE BELIEF that I am in fact nothing
less than a TURK........
And now ladies and gentlemen
...............*drum-roll*........................ the moment you've
all seen a thousand times before
.............................*drum-roll*........................ Koku
the clown will .........*drum-roll*........................ before your
very eyes ...............*drum-roll*........................ contradict
himself stupidly with
...............*drum-roll*........................
"BTW, here you are ADMITTING to be Seanie Ruttledge, you MEGA-IDIOT ;-)
You BANKRUPT MEGA-LOSER ;-)))"
Mbouhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaharharharhar
It took me 2005 attempts to get my true IRISH identity through to the
thick Romanianeshti wannbe grik
http://snipurl.com/f90m
And maybe, JUST MAYBE...... I've succeeded
*ROTFFLMFAOAYAPMFP*
I PWN KOKU THE CLOWN !
Walter Constantin Gogu Costica Brincoveanu Mitty
2005-10-11 09:36:11 UTC
Permalink
Oy Stavros

You should also explain that you never grumble when your pithy excuse
for a balkan people use terms like NAZI TURK or YID or JEW or Bulgar or
SLAV or SLAVOSKOPIAN or MONGOOOOOLE

You idiotic two-faced cockloving grik gaybwoy

http://snipurl.com/idnz

PWNT !
n***@yahoo.de
2005-10-11 11:43:03 UTC
Permalink
Tired after cleaning too many toilets today, turk? Not much left of
your exceptional turkish brain power!
Post by Walter Constantin Gogu Costica Brincoveanu Mitty
Oy Stavros
You should also explain that you never grumble when your pithy excuse
for a balkan people use terms like NAZI TURK or YID or JEW or Bulgar or
SLAV or SLAVOSKOPIAN or MONGOOOOOLE
You idiotic two-faced cockloving grik gaybwoy
http://snipurl.com/idnz
PWNT !
June R Harton
2005-10-18 05:27:07 UTC
Permalink
"++" <***@erols.com> wrote in message news:***@erols.com...

Rather like you, Gail?


Folks, you only have to look here to see that the Fyrom Slavic majority
are simply West Bulgarians and have no connection to 'Macedonia'
anything:

In a letter to Prof. Marin Drinov of May 25, 1888 Kuzman Shapkarev writes:
"But even stranger is the name Macedonians, which was imposed on us only 10
to 15 years ago by outsiders, and not as something by our own
intellectuals... Yet the people in Macedonia know nothing of that ancient
name, reintroduced today with a cunning aim on the one hand and a stupid one
on the other. They know the older word: "Bugari", although mispronounced:
they have even adopted it as peculiarly theirs, inapplicable to other
Bulgarians. You can find more about this in the introduction to the booklets
I am sending you. They call their own Macedono-Bulgarian dialect the
"Bugarski language", while the rest of the Bulgarian dialects they refer to
as the "Shopski language". (Makedonski pregled, IX, 2, 1934, p. 55; the
original letter is kept in the Marin Drinov Museum in Sofia, and it is
available for examination and study)
Here is the text in the original:

"No pochudno e imeto Makedonci, koeto naskoro, edvay predi 10-15 godini, ni
natrapiha i to otvqn, a ne kakto nyakoi mislyat ot samata nasha
inteligenciya... Narodqt obache v Makedoniya ne znae nishto za tova
arhaichesko, a dnes, s lukava cel ot edna strana, s glupeshka ot druga,
podnoveno prozvishte; toy si znae postaroto: Bugari, makar i nepravilno
proiznasyano, daje osvoyava si go kato sobstveno i preimushtestveno svoe,
nejeli za drugite Bqlgari. Za tova shte vidite i v predgovora na izpratenite
mi knijici. Toy naricha Bugarski ezik svoeto Makaedono-bqlgarsko narechie,
kogato drugite bqlgarski narechiya naricha Shopski."


And here:


Reference source for Gotse Delchev's numerous utterings of 'We are
Bulgarians'......

http://www.ucc.ie/staff/jprodr/macedonia/macmodnat2.html

Even Gotse Delchev, the famous Macedonian revolutionary leader, whose nom de
guerre was Ahil (Achilles), refers to "the Slavs of Macedonia as
'Bulgarians' in an offhanded manner without seeming to indicate that such a
designation was a point of contention" (Perry 1988:23).
In his correspondence Gotse Delchev often states clearly and simply, "We are
Bulgarians" (MacDermott 1978:192,273).


And here:


For fair use only.

http://members.tripod.com/~dimobetchev/documents/ilinden.htm

" Considering the critical and terrible situation that the Bulgarian
population of the Bitola Vilayet found itself in and following the ravages
and cruelties done by the Turkish troops and irregulars, ... considering
the fact that everything Bulgarian runs the risk of perishing and
disappearing without a trace because of violence, hunger, and the upcoming
misery, the Head Quarters finds it to be its obligation to draw the
attention of the respected Bulgarian government to the pernicious
consequences vis-a-vis the Bulgarian nation, in case the latter does not
fulfill its duty towards its brethren of race here in an imposing fashion
which is necessary by virtue of the present ordeal for the common Bulgarian
Fatherland...

...Being in command of our people's movement, we appeal to you on behalf of
the enslaved Bulgarian to help him in the most effective way - by waging
war.We believe that the response of the people in free Bulgaria will be the
same.

... No bulgarian school is opened, neither will it be opened... Nobody
thinks of education when he is outlawed by the state because he bears the
name Bulgar...


Waiting for your patriotic intervention, we are pleased to inform you that
we have in our disposition the armed forces we have spared by now.

The Head Quarters of the Ilinden Uprising"

Damian GRUEV, Boris SARAFOV, Atanas LOZANTCHEV

This memorandum was handed to Dr.Kozhuharov, the Bulgarian consul in Bitola,

and transmitted by him to the government in Sofia with report N441 from
September 17th, 1903. "

And here:


http://www.bulgaria.com/VMRO/document.htm

http://www.bulgaria.com/VMRO/documen1.htm

http://www.bulgaria.com/VMRO/documen2.htm

http://www.bulgaria.com/VMRO/documen3.htm

http://www.bulgaria.com/VMRO/drzhava.htm

http://www.bulgaria.com/VMRO/exarchy.htm

http://w3.tyenet.com/kozlich/mapovska4a.htm

And finally here

http://www.bulgaria.com/VMRO/bitola06.htm

http://www.historymuseum.org/items.php3?nid=199&name=ochrid



from: Spirit of Truth

(using June's e-mail to communicate to you)!
++
2005-10-05 00:55:20 UTC
Permalink
ADR wrote:

...As you can see from this board, 99% of the postings are exchanges of
Post by ADR
insults. It is only a few individuals who bother to compose a reasoned
argument (and you are not one of them)....
ADR
You crack me up, Anastasi,

First you say that "you can see from this board, 99% of the postings are
exchanges of insults" and then you insult me. How typical.

Galina
u***@domain.invalid
2005-10-05 01:47:27 UTC
Permalink
Retzios in 1926 they change our Macedonians names your comrades Greki why?
Post by ++
...As you can see from this board, 99% of the postings are exchanges of
Post by ADR
insults. It is only a few individuals who bother to compose a reasoned
argument (and you are not one of them)....
ADR
You crack me up, Anastasi,
First you say that "you can see from this board, 99% of the postings are
exchanges of insults" and then you insult me. How typical.
Galina
ADR
2005-10-05 03:08:14 UTC
Permalink
Galina,

I did not insult you. I made an observation that you know is true. In
addition, you insulted me in the same manner in your posting that
prompted my reply. So, who's cracking up whom??? Come on, do not be
so disingenious. If you could ever have been capable of arguing in a
reasoned way in this board, you would have done it already. Instead,
we have nothing but homilies.

ADR
++
2005-10-11 08:45:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Panayiotis
Galina,
I did not insult you. I made an observation that you know is true. In
addition, you insulted me in the same manner in your posting that
prompted my reply. So, who's cracking up whom??? Come on, do not be
so disingenious. If you could ever have been capable of arguing in a
reasoned way in this board, you would have done it already. Instead,
we have nothing but homilies.
ADR
Dear dear Anastasi,

I was refering to your usual lack of consistency when it comes to things
Macedonian. You often contradict yourself and when faced with your own
contradictions and then devolve to insults. Yet you never insult the
often sophmoric Greek nationals (and even wannabe Greeks) on this forum.
June R Harton
2005-10-18 05:32:44 UTC
Permalink
"++" <***@erols.com> wrote in message news:j_2dnXen2aw85tbeRVn-***@rcn.net...

Silly.

Folks, you only have to look here to see that the Fyrom Slavic majority
are simply West Bulgarians and have no connection to 'Macedonia'
anything:

In a letter to Prof. Marin Drinov of May 25, 1888 Kuzman Shapkarev writes:
"But even stranger is the name Macedonians, which was imposed on us only 10
to 15 years ago by outsiders, and not as something by our own
intellectuals... Yet the people in Macedonia know nothing of that ancient
name, reintroduced today with a cunning aim on the one hand and a stupid one
on the other. They know the older word: "Bugari", although mispronounced:
they have even adopted it as peculiarly theirs, inapplicable to other
Bulgarians. You can find more about this in the introduction to the booklets
I am sending you. They call their own Macedono-Bulgarian dialect the
"Bugarski language", while the rest of the Bulgarian dialects they refer to
as the "Shopski language". (Makedonski pregled, IX, 2, 1934, p. 55; the
original letter is kept in the Marin Drinov Museum in Sofia, and it is
available for examination and study)
Here is the text in the original:

"No pochudno e imeto Makedonci, koeto naskoro, edvay predi 10-15 godini, ni
natrapiha i to otvqn, a ne kakto nyakoi mislyat ot samata nasha
inteligenciya... Narodqt obache v Makedoniya ne znae nishto za tova
arhaichesko, a dnes, s lukava cel ot edna strana, s glupeshka ot druga,
podnoveno prozvishte; toy si znae postaroto: Bugari, makar i nepravilno
proiznasyano, daje osvoyava si go kato sobstveno i preimushtestveno svoe,
nejeli za drugite Bqlgari. Za tova shte vidite i v predgovora na izpratenite
mi knijici. Toy naricha Bugarski ezik svoeto Makaedono-bqlgarsko narechie,
kogato drugite bqlgarski narechiya naricha Shopski."


And here:


Reference source for Gotse Delchev's numerous utterings of 'We are
Bulgarians'......

http://www.ucc.ie/staff/jprodr/macedonia/macmodnat2.html

Even Gotse Delchev, the famous Macedonian revolutionary leader, whose nom de
guerre was Ahil (Achilles), refers to "the Slavs of Macedonia as
'Bulgarians' in an offhanded manner without seeming to indicate that such a
designation was a point of contention" (Perry 1988:23).
In his correspondence Gotse Delchev often states clearly and simply, "We are
Bulgarians" (MacDermott 1978:192,273).


And here:


For fair use only.

http://members.tripod.com/~dimobetchev/documents/ilinden.htm

" Considering the critical and terrible situation that the Bulgarian
population of the Bitola Vilayet found itself in and following the ravages
and cruelties done by the Turkish troops and irregulars, ... considering
the fact that everything Bulgarian runs the risk of perishing and
disappearing without a trace because of violence, hunger, and the upcoming
misery, the Head Quarters finds it to be its obligation to draw the
attention of the respected Bulgarian government to the pernicious
consequences vis-a-vis the Bulgarian nation, in case the latter does not
fulfill its duty towards its brethren of race here in an imposing fashion
which is necessary by virtue of the present ordeal for the common Bulgarian
Fatherland...

...Being in command of our people's movement, we appeal to you on behalf of
the enslaved Bulgarian to help him in the most effective way - by waging
war.We believe that the response of the people in free Bulgaria will be the
same.

... No bulgarian school is opened, neither will it be opened... Nobody
thinks of education when he is outlawed by the state because he bears the
name Bulgar...


Waiting for your patriotic intervention, we are pleased to inform you that
we have in our disposition the armed forces we have spared by now.

The Head Quarters of the Ilinden Uprising"

Damian GRUEV, Boris SARAFOV, Atanas LOZANTCHEV

This memorandum was handed to Dr.Kozhuharov, the Bulgarian consul in Bitola,

and transmitted by him to the government in Sofia with report N441 from
September 17th, 1903. "

And here:


http://www.bulgaria.com/VMRO/document.htm

http://www.bulgaria.com/VMRO/documen1.htm

http://www.bulgaria.com/VMRO/documen2.htm

http://www.bulgaria.com/VMRO/documen3.htm

http://www.bulgaria.com/VMRO/drzhava.htm

http://www.bulgaria.com/VMRO/exarchy.htm

http://w3.tyenet.com/kozlich/mapovska4a.htm

And finally here

http://www.bulgaria.com/VMRO/bitola06.htm

http://www.historymuseum.org/items.php3?nid=199&name=ochrid



from: Spirit of Truth

(using June's e-mail to communicate to you)!
Walter Constantin Gogu Costica Brincoveanu Mitty
2005-10-18 12:32:46 UTC
Permalink
Silly

JUNE R HARTON aged 52
PAUL R HARTON aged 58 D.O.B 10/28/1952


Address 4411 LOS FELIZ BLVD
BIGLEROCK BLVD #APT 504
LOS ANGELES, CA 90027
USA

from: Spirit of 52 year old bored housewife bitch


(using June's e-mail to communicate to you)!
TurkAbuser
2005-10-18 13:31:35 UTC
Permalink
Sean Ruttledge's severe episodes of mania or depression include
symptoms of psychosis (or psychotic symptoms). Common psychotic
symptoms are hallucinations (hearing, seeing, or otherwise sensing the
presence of things not actually there) and delusions (false, strongly
held beliefs not influenced by logical reasoning or explained by a
person's usual cultural concepts). Psychotic symptoms in bipolar
disorder tend to reflect the extreme mood state at the time. For
example, delusions of grandiosity, such as believing one is English
when in fact he is a Turk with very strong mongolic features.Or has
special powers or wealth,he owns a one minivan limo service may occur
during mania; delusions of guilt or worthlessness, such as believing
that one is ruined and penniless or has committed some terrible crime,
may appear during depression. People with bipolar disorder who have
these symptoms are sometimes incorrectly diagnosed as having
schizophrenia, another severe mental illness.

Reply
Post by Walter Constantin Gogu Costica Brincoveanu Mitty
Silly
JUNE R HARTON aged 52
PAUL R HARTON aged 58 D.O.B 10/28/1952
Address 4411 LOS FELIZ BLVD
BIGLEROCK BLVD #APT 504
LOS ANGELES, CA 90027
USA
from: Spirit of 52 year old bored housewife bitch
(using June's e-mail to communicate to you)!
Moo Moo MhuttsAss
2005-10-18 16:44:11 UTC
Permalink
Thanks Doc !

*LMFAOAY*
++
2005-10-19 09:28:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Walter Constantin Gogu Costica Brincoveanu Mitty
Silly
JUNE R HARTON aged 52
PAUL R HARTON aged 58 D.O.B 10/28/1952
Address 4411 LOS FELIZ BLVD
BIGLEROCK BLVD #APT 504
LOS ANGELES, CA 90027
USA
from: Spirit of 52 year old bored housewife bitch
I dunno how much of a be-atch she would be, since she presumably lets
her husband take over her email. Sounds more like she's a submissive
type with no mind of her own?
Post by Walter Constantin Gogu Costica Brincoveanu Mitty
(using June's e-mail to communicate to you)!
Drexl's GAY Escort Agency of NYC
2005-10-19 09:33:26 UTC
Permalink
She's certainly 2 things

1 BORING

2 MAD

You can add RACIST if you need a third



*LOL*
June R Harton
2005-10-28 06:35:00 UTC
Permalink
"Drexl's GAY Escort Agency of NYC" <***@loaning.co.uk> wrote in
message news:***@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...

Both silly.

Your hinterland of "Macedonia" is not the hinterland of Macedonia.

Real Macedonia stretch to Thessaly and Greeks continued to inhabit it.
Many Greeks in the north fled south after the failed rebellion of 1821.
Stop denying reality. Just because some started to talk about
"Macedonia" really meaning the area of the 3 vilayets it does
not in the slightest mean that that was really Macedonia.

In addition Jewish add on in Thessaloniki as you know came from the
Ottomans. And the Ottomans were the other contingrent in Thessaloniki.
As long as a Greek lived in Thessaloniki Real Macedonia *never* died.

In addition in the real hinterland of the real Macedonia Vlach still
existed and there is enough possibility that they were the "Upper
Macedonian Greeks" from ancient times who had taken somewhat
the Latin tongue that you best not go to a Vlach village and try to
tell THEM they are not Greeks......


You are confused agin as to where the real Macedonia is.

Where did you get the idea that Ottoman vilayets were anything
"Macedonian".


Real Macedonia is the area of ancient Macedonia. The Roman
Diocese of Macedonia was different to ancient Greek Macedonia
and THEN Roman Macedonia CEASED to exist when the Slavic
speaking tribes invaded. It ceased to exist as any Macedonia
FROM that time period.

Why do you continue to IGNORE truth? _Macedonia_ became an
area around Adrianople NOT an area in the Western Balkans TILL
the Greeks retook the area of the Real Macedonia from the
Ottoman Turks in 1912/13 and then renamed the area _Macedonia_.


Now, I suggest you get your facts straight:


You are very mixed up. Regarding the area of real Macedonia (NOT
Fyrom area) the southern portion which extended down to Thessaly
those people were Greeks...period. Those you describe are the
people in the northern and western areas of Real Macedonia who
also spoke Slavic but also identified as Greeks. And those in the
northern and western area of Real Macedonia who spoke Slavic
and identified with Bulgarians those were the minority of Bulgarians
in the real Macedonia region.


Rumelia. Look:

Article 23 of the Berlin Treaty, 1878,
"The Sublime Porte is obliged to carefully implement the Organic Statute in
the island of Crete, introducing changes which would be assessed as
justified.
Analogous statutes adapted to local requirements, with the exception of the
tax exemption approved to Crete, will be equally introduced in the other
parts of European Turkey as well, which are not subject of particular
drawing up in this Treaty. The Sublime Porte is to engage special
commissions, composed to a great extent of local members, which
are to work out the details of the new statutes for each province.
The organization projects to be worked out by the commissions
will be submitted for examination to the Sublime Porte, which in
turn, before passing any of the acts, will request the opinion of the
European commission established for Eastern Rumelia."


And Rumelia from:
http://www.britannica.com/bcom/eb/article/1/0,5716,66071+1,00.html
For fair use only


ENCYCLOPÆDIA BRITANNICA

Rumelia

Turkish RUMELI, the former Ottoman possessions in the Balkans. The name
means "land of the Romans"--i.e., Byzantines. The Turks first began to make
conquests in the Balkans in the mid-14th century. The land was divided into
fiefs of various size that were administered by cavalry officers; local
notables who converted to Islam also shared in the administration. The
administrative configuration of Rumelia changed frequently until 1864, when
the unit of administrative division became defined as the province, or
vilayet, which was in turn divided into sancak (subprovinces). The Danube
vilayet was formed first, in 1864, followed by those of Janina (Ioannina)
and Salonika (Thessaloníki, in Greece) in 1867. Under the Treaty of Berlin
(1878), the Danube vilayet formed the independent state of Bulgaria under
Ottoman suzerainty; southern Bulgaria formed the autonomous province of
Eastern Rumelia with its capital at Philippopoli (Plovdiv); and western
Rumelia was divided into the Edirne, Salonika, and Monastir ils (provinces).
In 1885 Bulgaria annexed Eastern Rumelia, and by the Treaty of Bucharest
(1913), Monastir was ceded to Serbia and Salonika to Greece; only Edirne
remained under Ottoman rule.
In the 15th and 16th centuries Rumelia functioned as a reservoir of the
devsirme (levy of Christian boys), who held the highest posts in the
Ottoman army and government. Rumelia was also a centre of Ottoman Islamic
culture, which flourished in the religious schools (medreses) and mosques in
Üsküb, Istip (Stip), Prizren, Pristina, Monastir, and Edirne. Islamic mystic
brotherhoods found large followings in Bulgaria, Albania,
and Bosnia-Herzegovina.



When the Ottoman Turks were driven out of the real area of ancient Macedonia
by the Macedonian and other Greeks in 1912/13 the area
was re-called Macedonia by the Greeks and all of the world from that
time.

Greece formed the Directorate of Macedonia in 1913, the first
official use of the name Macedonia in the territory of Macedonia
since the disappearance of the Roman diocese.

http://truth.macedonia.gr/maps.html

"After the violent turmoil of the Balkan Wars, all was peaceful and quiet,
at least according to the report District Director of Langadhas had sent to
the prefect of Thessaloniki. And yet that same year (1914), the Ottoman
General Consulate of Salonika was protesting to the GOVERNOR GENERAL OF
MACEDONIA that a number of atrocities had been
committed against Muslims in the Langadhas district." pp.164

Anastasia N. Karakasidou, "Fields of Wheat, Hills of Blood", Chicago, 1997

For those interested in historical details, the name of the first Governor
of Macedonia was Constantinos Raktivan who was placed in office by
the Greek gvt. in 1913.

http://www.hri.org/Martis/contents/doc4.html

http://www.hri.org/Martis/contents/doc9.html

http://www.hri.org/Martis/contents/doc23.html


If you do not refer to the real area of Macedonia you will not understand.

The Real area of Macedonia:

http://www.macedonia.com/english/history/regions1.html

The Regions of Ancient Macedonia

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Pre-Philip II:

Upper Macedonia
Ancient Name: Modern Location:
-----------------------------------------------------------------
ORESTIS Kastoria province, Greece
TYMPHAEA Grevena province, Greece
ELIMEIA S. Kozane province, Greece
EORDAEA N. Kozane province, Greece
LYNKESTIS Florina province, Greece
PELAGONIA Monastiri (Bitola), tiny area SW FYROM


Lower Macedonia

Ancient Name: Modern Location:
-----------------------------------------------------------------
AMPHAXITIS Kilkis province, Greece
ALMOPIA Pella province, Greece
PIERIA Pieria province, Greece
BOTTIAEA Emathia province, Greece
KRESTONIA N. Thessalonike province, Greece
MYGDONIA E. Thessalonike province, Greece
ANTHEMOUS S. Thessalonike province, Greece


Expansion under Philip II:

New Macedonia

Ancient Name: Modern Location:
-----------------------------------------------------------------
BISALTIA E. Thessalonike province, Greece
SINTIKE Serres province, Greece
ODOMANTIS Drama province, Greece
EDONIS Kavalla province, Greece
THASSOS Kavalla province, Greece
CHALKIDIKE Chalkidike province, Greece
SOUTHERN PAEONIA Gevgeli province, tiny area SE FYROM


http://www.unet.com.mk/oldmacedonianmaps/stmapi/mapa3.jpg

http://www.macedonian-heritage.gr/Maps/mapSeq_Map01.html

http://crystalinks.com/mapgreeceancient.gif


:)


from: Spirit of Truth

(using June's e-mail to communicate to you)
Costas Spyronikolapapahatziharambosdimitropoulakis
2005-10-28 17:50:49 UTC
Permalink
Silly

June R Harton
2005-10-28 06:32:05 UTC
Permalink
"Walter Constantin Gogu Costica Brincoveanu Mitty" <***@loaning.co.uk>
wrote in message news:***@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

Silly.

Your hinterland of "Macedonia" is not the hinterland of Macedonia.

Real Macedonia stretch to Thessaly and Greeks continued to inhabit it.
Many Greeks in the north fled south after the failed rebellion of 1821.
Stop denying reality. Just because some started to talk about
"Macedonia" really meaning the area of the 3 vilayets it does
not in the slightest mean that that was really Macedonia.

In addition Jewish add on in Thessaloniki as you know came from the
Ottomans. And the Ottomans were the other contingrent in Thessaloniki.
As long as a Greek lived in Thessaloniki Real Macedonia *never* died.

In addition in the real hinterland of the real Macedonia Vlach still
existed and there is enough possibility that they were the "Upper
Macedonian Greeks" from ancient times who had taken somewhat
the Latin tongue that you best not go to a Vlach village and try to
tell THEM they are not Greeks......


You are confused agin as to where the real Macedonia is.

Where did you get the idea that Ottoman vilayets were anything
"Macedonian".


Real Macedonia is the area of ancient Macedonia. The Roman
Diocese of Macedonia was different to ancient Greek Macedonia
and THEN Roman Macedonia CEASED to exist when the Slavic
speaking tribes invaded. It ceased to exist as any Macedonia
FROM that time period.

Why do you continue to IGNORE truth? _Macedonia_ became an
area around Adrianople NOT an area in the Western Balkans TILL
the Greeks retook the area of the Real Macedonia from the
Ottoman Turks in 1912/13 and then renamed the area _Macedonia_.


Now, I suggest you get your facts straight:


You are very mixed up. Regarding the area of real Macedonia (NOT
Fyrom area) the southern portion which extended down to Thessaly
those people were Greeks...period. Those you describe are the
people in the northern and western areas of Real Macedonia who
also spoke Slavic but also identified as Greeks. And those in the
northern and western area of Real Macedonia who spoke Slavic
and identified with Bulgarians those were the minority of Bulgarians
in the real Macedonia region.


Rumelia. Look:

Article 23 of the Berlin Treaty, 1878,
"The Sublime Porte is obliged to carefully implement the Organic Statute in
the island of Crete, introducing changes which would be assessed as
justified.
Analogous statutes adapted to local requirements, with the exception of the
tax exemption approved to Crete, will be equally introduced in the other
parts of European Turkey as well, which are not subject of particular
drawing up in this Treaty. The Sublime Porte is to engage special
commissions, composed to a great extent of local members, which
are to work out the details of the new statutes for each province.
The organization projects to be worked out by the commissions
will be submitted for examination to the Sublime Porte, which in
turn, before passing any of the acts, will request the opinion of the
European commission established for Eastern Rumelia."


And Rumelia from:
http://www.britannica.com/bcom/eb/article/1/0,5716,66071+1,00.html
For fair use only


ENCYCLOPÆDIA BRITANNICA

Rumelia

Turkish RUMELI, the former Ottoman possessions in the Balkans. The name
means "land of the Romans"--i.e., Byzantines. The Turks first began to make
conquests in the Balkans in the mid-14th century. The land was divided into
fiefs of various size that were administered by cavalry officers; local
notables who converted to Islam also shared in the administration. The
administrative configuration of Rumelia changed frequently until 1864, when
the unit of administrative division became defined as the province, or
vilayet, which was in turn divided into sancak (subprovinces). The Danube
vilayet was formed first, in 1864, followed by those of Janina (Ioannina)
and Salonika (Thessaloníki, in Greece) in 1867. Under the Treaty of Berlin
(1878), the Danube vilayet formed the independent state of Bulgaria under
Ottoman suzerainty; southern Bulgaria formed the autonomous province of
Eastern Rumelia with its capital at Philippopoli (Plovdiv); and western
Rumelia was divided into the Edirne, Salonika, and Monastir ils (provinces).
In 1885 Bulgaria annexed Eastern Rumelia, and by the Treaty of Bucharest
(1913), Monastir was ceded to Serbia and Salonika to Greece; only Edirne
remained under Ottoman rule.
In the 15th and 16th centuries Rumelia functioned as a reservoir of the
devsirme (levy of Christian boys), who held the highest posts in the
Ottoman army and government. Rumelia was also a centre of Ottoman Islamic
culture, which flourished in the religious schools (medreses) and mosques in
Üsküb, Istip (Stip), Prizren, Pristina, Monastir, and Edirne. Islamic mystic
brotherhoods found large followings in Bulgaria, Albania,
and Bosnia-Herzegovina.



When the Ottoman Turks were driven out of the real area of ancient Macedonia
by the Macedonian and other Greeks in 1912/13 the area
was re-called Macedonia by the Greeks and all of the world from that
time.

Greece formed the Directorate of Macedonia in 1913, the first
official use of the name Macedonia in the territory of Macedonia
since the disappearance of the Roman diocese.

http://truth.macedonia.gr/maps.html

"After the violent turmoil of the Balkan Wars, all was peaceful and quiet,
at least according to the report District Director of Langadhas had sent to
the prefect of Thessaloniki. And yet that same year (1914), the Ottoman
General Consulate of Salonika was protesting to the GOVERNOR GENERAL OF
MACEDONIA that a number of atrocities had been
committed against Muslims in the Langadhas district." pp.164

Anastasia N. Karakasidou, "Fields of Wheat, Hills of Blood", Chicago, 1997

For those interested in historical details, the name of the first Governor
of Macedonia was Constantinos Raktivan who was placed in office by
the Greek gvt. in 1913.

http://www.hri.org/Martis/contents/doc4.html

http://www.hri.org/Martis/contents/doc9.html

http://www.hri.org/Martis/contents/doc23.html


If you do not refer to the real area of Macedonia you will not understand.

The Real area of Macedonia:

http://www.macedonia.com/english/history/regions1.html

The Regions of Ancient Macedonia

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Pre-Philip II:

Upper Macedonia
Ancient Name: Modern Location:
-----------------------------------------------------------------
ORESTIS Kastoria province, Greece
TYMPHAEA Grevena province, Greece
ELIMEIA S. Kozane province, Greece
EORDAEA N. Kozane province, Greece
LYNKESTIS Florina province, Greece
PELAGONIA Monastiri (Bitola), tiny area SW FYROM


Lower Macedonia

Ancient Name: Modern Location:
-----------------------------------------------------------------
AMPHAXITIS Kilkis province, Greece
ALMOPIA Pella province, Greece
PIERIA Pieria province, Greece
BOTTIAEA Emathia province, Greece
KRESTONIA N. Thessalonike province, Greece
MYGDONIA E. Thessalonike province, Greece
ANTHEMOUS S. Thessalonike province, Greece


Expansion under Philip II:

New Macedonia

Ancient Name: Modern Location:
-----------------------------------------------------------------
BISALTIA E. Thessalonike province, Greece
SINTIKE Serres province, Greece
ODOMANTIS Drama province, Greece
EDONIS Kavalla province, Greece
THASSOS Kavalla province, Greece
CHALKIDIKE Chalkidike province, Greece
SOUTHERN PAEONIA Gevgeli province, tiny area SE FYROM


Loading Image...

http://www.macedonian-heritage.gr/Maps/mapSeq_Map01.html

Loading Image...


:)


from: Spirit of Truth

(using June's e-mail to communicate to you)
June R Harton
2005-10-18 05:31:56 UTC
Permalink
"ADR" <***@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:***@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

_and_ complete lies.

Folks, you only have to look here to see that the Fyrom Slavic majority
are simply West Bulgarians and have no connection to 'Macedonia'
anything:

In a letter to Prof. Marin Drinov of May 25, 1888 Kuzman Shapkarev writes:
"But even stranger is the name Macedonians, which was imposed on us only 10
to 15 years ago by outsiders, and not as something by our own
intellectuals... Yet the people in Macedonia know nothing of that ancient
name, reintroduced today with a cunning aim on the one hand and a stupid one
on the other. They know the older word: "Bugari", although mispronounced:
they have even adopted it as peculiarly theirs, inapplicable to other
Bulgarians. You can find more about this in the introduction to the booklets
I am sending you. They call their own Macedono-Bulgarian dialect the
"Bugarski language", while the rest of the Bulgarian dialects they refer to
as the "Shopski language". (Makedonski pregled, IX, 2, 1934, p. 55; the
original letter is kept in the Marin Drinov Museum in Sofia, and it is
available for examination and study)
Here is the text in the original:

"No pochudno e imeto Makedonci, koeto naskoro, edvay predi 10-15 godini, ni
natrapiha i to otvqn, a ne kakto nyakoi mislyat ot samata nasha
inteligenciya... Narodqt obache v Makedoniya ne znae nishto za tova
arhaichesko, a dnes, s lukava cel ot edna strana, s glupeshka ot druga,
podnoveno prozvishte; toy si znae postaroto: Bugari, makar i nepravilno
proiznasyano, daje osvoyava si go kato sobstveno i preimushtestveno svoe,
nejeli za drugite Bqlgari. Za tova shte vidite i v predgovora na izpratenite
mi knijici. Toy naricha Bugarski ezik svoeto Makaedono-bqlgarsko narechie,
kogato drugite bqlgarski narechiya naricha Shopski."


And here:


Reference source for Gotse Delchev's numerous utterings of 'We are
Bulgarians'......

http://www.ucc.ie/staff/jprodr/macedonia/macmodnat2.html

Even Gotse Delchev, the famous Macedonian revolutionary leader, whose nom de
guerre was Ahil (Achilles), refers to "the Slavs of Macedonia as
'Bulgarians' in an offhanded manner without seeming to indicate that such a
designation was a point of contention" (Perry 1988:23).
In his correspondence Gotse Delchev often states clearly and simply, "We are
Bulgarians" (MacDermott 1978:192,273).


And here:


For fair use only.

http://members.tripod.com/~dimobetchev/documents/ilinden.htm

" Considering the critical and terrible situation that the Bulgarian
population of the Bitola Vilayet found itself in and following the ravages
and cruelties done by the Turkish troops and irregulars, ... considering
the fact that everything Bulgarian runs the risk of perishing and
disappearing without a trace because of violence, hunger, and the upcoming
misery, the Head Quarters finds it to be its obligation to draw the
attention of the respected Bulgarian government to the pernicious
consequences vis-a-vis the Bulgarian nation, in case the latter does not
fulfill its duty towards its brethren of race here in an imposing fashion
which is necessary by virtue of the present ordeal for the common Bulgarian
Fatherland...

...Being in command of our people's movement, we appeal to you on behalf of
the enslaved Bulgarian to help him in the most effective way - by waging
war.We believe that the response of the people in free Bulgaria will be the
same.

... No bulgarian school is opened, neither will it be opened... Nobody
thinks of education when he is outlawed by the state because he bears the
name Bulgar...


Waiting for your patriotic intervention, we are pleased to inform you that
we have in our disposition the armed forces we have spared by now.

The Head Quarters of the Ilinden Uprising"

Damian GRUEV, Boris SARAFOV, Atanas LOZANTCHEV

This memorandum was handed to Dr.Kozhuharov, the Bulgarian consul in Bitola,

and transmitted by him to the government in Sofia with report N441 from
September 17th, 1903. "

And here:


http://www.bulgaria.com/VMRO/document.htm

http://www.bulgaria.com/VMRO/documen1.htm

http://www.bulgaria.com/VMRO/documen2.htm

http://www.bulgaria.com/VMRO/documen3.htm

http://www.bulgaria.com/VMRO/drzhava.htm

http://www.bulgaria.com/VMRO/exarchy.htm

http://w3.tyenet.com/kozlich/mapovska4a.htm

And finally here

http://www.bulgaria.com/VMRO/bitola06.htm

http://www.historymuseum.org/items.php3?nid=199&name=ochrid



from: Spirit of Truth

(using June's e-mail to communicate to you)!
ADR
2005-09-29 21:25:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by ++
Post by ADR
Regarding the Slavs in Macedonia, no names were forcibly changed
despite the usual Macedonist lore. In fact, many utilized Greek
surnames in an attempt not to be exchanged during the period of the
enforcement of the treaty of Neuilly (population exchanges with
Bulgaria).
Give everyone a break, will you and go to yur local library and consult
both the nineteenth century and the twentiest century maps. We aren't
talking ancient history. The name changes are there and are obvious.
Again, your English is failing you. Read my sentence again and you
will find that I was taking about "surnames", not toponyms!!! And, as
far as I know, you cannot find surnames on maps. Next time, read more
carefully and reply on the issue rather what you wish to reply on!!
Post by ++
Post by ADR
But if anybody wishes to assume a slavic name, the avenue is fully open
for that person to do so. What it is required is a specific
application to the appropriate county office. If the application is
not processed, then the said person can file a complaint with the
courts, but I doubt that it will ever come to this.
ludicrous, given marginalization of Macedonians to expect them to sue
and just throw away money.
What marginalization??? [and I guess that you are talking about the
slavonic Macedonians]. How much money does it take to launch an
application for a name change?? The minimum application fee?? Get
real. As far as the legal fees, I am sure that "Rainbow" would love to
pursue such a case in a Greek court, if an application is denied. By
the way, it was Ilinden here who volunteered the information that he
was actually adviced by Greek officials to apply for a name change, if
he wanted a Greek passport in his slavic name. So, the only problem is
in your imagination.
Post by ++
Post by ADR
The ex-mayor of Thessaloniki and noted historian was Kostis Moskov (who
has recently died). So, having a slavic name is neither an impediment
nor is it "illegal". Therefore, I suggest that you stop these silly
postings here and encourage all the whinners to apply for whatever name
they wish to have.
wow1 You found one little example in a sea of examples to prove your
myopic idiotic case.
One little example? Have you bother to check the telephone directory
in Greece???? My platoon leader in the army was named Kuznetzov and I
know others with slavic names. As for Kostis Moskov, he was the mayor
of Thessaloniki for 2 terms in the 80's and a celebrated historian.
So, by no means a "little example". Evagellos Averov was the Greek
minister for defence in the '80s for both terms of the conservative
party goverment. And there are many others in other positions. So,
slavic names are not, I repeat, are not prohibited in Greece, nor are
they a deterrent for any career in politics or other aspects of public
life. What is an impediment is a person's stated believes and his/her
allegiance to the Greek state. It would be silly to expect that Greeks
would vote in power or support a person whose primarily allegiance lays
with FYROM.

So, unless you have anything pertinent to say to this instead of cheap
editorializing, I would be glad to hear it.

ADR
Panayiotis
2005-09-29 21:55:25 UTC
Permalink
======================================
"And Macedonia, of course, is a part of Greece."
(Strabo VII, Frg. 9 [Loeb, H.L. Jones])
======================================
Post by ++
Post by ADR
Regarding the Slavs in Macedonia, no names were forcibly changed
despite the usual Macedonist lore. In fact, many utilized Greek
surnames in an attempt not to be exchanged during the period of the
enforcement of the treaty of Neuilly (population exchanges with
Bulgaria).
Give everyone a break, will you and go to yur local library and consult
both the nineteenth century and the twentiest century maps. We aren't
talking ancient history. The name changes are there and are obvious.
Post by ADR
But if anybody wishes to assume a slavic name, the avenue is fully open
for that person to do so. What it is required is a specific
application to the appropriate county office. If the application is
not processed, then the said person can file a complaint with the
courts, but I doubt that it will ever come to this.
ludicrous, given marginalization of Macedonians to expect them to sue
and just throw away money.
Post by ADR
The ex-mayor of Thessaloniki and noted historian was Kostis Moskov (who
has recently died). So, having a slavic name is neither an impediment
nor is it "illegal". Therefore, I suggest that you stop these silly
postings here and encourage all the whinners to apply for whatever name
they wish to have.
wow1 You found one little example in a sea of examples to prove your
myopic idiotic case.
Post by ADR
ADR
My dearest Galina,
Please accept my contribution in resolving your doubts in this matter, i.e.,
if Greek citizens can have Slav names.

One of my hobbies was photography. When I lived in Athens for some years, I
got my photographic supplies from a store that had a big label "Kogetsov",
in Greek.

Many years ago, the president of the "Union of Greek Writers" was called
Nasioudjik.

Panayiotis
Big Butch Floppie Bwoy
2005-09-29 22:42:29 UTC
Permalink
Panny IDIOTis strikes again !

*LMFAOAY*
June R Harton
2005-10-01 07:22:47 UTC
Permalink
"++" <***@erols.com> wrote in message news:***@rcn.net...

Sorry, Gail, he exposed completed that you are lying.





from: Spirit of Truth

(using June's e-mail to communicate to you)!
Istor the Macedonian
2005-09-28 17:50:41 UTC
Permalink
Do you know any Macedonian toponym not restored yet in Greece?
(do the same question to me about FYROPseudoMacedonia)

Istor
Ethnic Macedonians were always Greeks
Post by u***@domain.invalid
Aga how about human rights in Aegean Macedonia for the Macedonians,
restore the first and last names into the original Macedonian names
restore the Macedonian language since 1936 which was suppressed.
Tom *Hooray Henry* Trosborg
2005-09-28 18:16:09 UTC
Permalink
Pres G W Bush says that Macedonia is an independant republic to the
North of dirty grease so BELT UP dumb-bwoy !
June R Harton
2005-10-01 07:26:46 UTC
Permalink
"Tom *Hooray Henry* Trosborg" <***@loaning.co.uk> wrote in message news:***@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...


Silly.

Folks, you only have to look here to see that the Fyrom Slavic majority
are simply West Bulgarians and have no connection to 'Macedonia'
anything:

In a letter to Prof. Marin Drinov of May 25, 1888 Kuzman Shapkarev writes:
"But even stranger is the name Macedonians, which was imposed on us only 10
to 15 years ago by outsiders, and not as something by our own
intellectuals... Yet the people in Macedonia know nothing of that ancient
name, reintroduced today with a cunning aim on the one hand and a stupid one
on the other. They know the older word: "Bugari", although mispronounced:
they have even adopted it as peculiarly theirs, inapplicable to other
Bulgarians. You can find more about this in the introduction to the booklets
I am sending you. They call their own Macedono-Bulgarian dialect the
"Bugarski language", while the rest of the Bulgarian dialects they refer to
as the "Shopski language". (Makedonski pregled, IX, 2, 1934, p. 55; the
original letter is kept in the Marin Drinov Museum in Sofia, and it is
available for examination and study)
Here is the text in the original:

"No pochudno e imeto Makedonci, koeto naskoro, edvay predi 10-15 godini, ni
natrapiha i to otvqn, a ne kakto nyakoi mislyat ot samata nasha
inteligenciya... Narodqt obache v Makedoniya ne znae nishto za tova
arhaichesko, a dnes, s lukava cel ot edna strana, s glupeshka ot druga,
podnoveno prozvishte; toy si znae postaroto: Bugari, makar i nepravilno
proiznasyano, daje osvoyava si go kato sobstveno i preimushtestveno svoe,
nejeli za drugite Bqlgari. Za tova shte vidite i v predgovora na izpratenite
mi knijici. Toy naricha Bugarski ezik svoeto Makaedono-bqlgarsko narechie,
kogato drugite bqlgarski narechiya naricha Shopski."


And here:


Reference source for Gotse Delchev's numerous utterings of 'We are
Bulgarians'......

http://www.ucc.ie/staff/jprodr/macedonia/macmodnat2.html

Even Gotse Delchev, the famous Macedonian revolutionary leader, whose nom de
guerre was Ahil (Achilles), refers to "the Slavs of Macedonia as
'Bulgarians' in an offhanded manner without seeming to indicate that such a
designation was a point of contention" (Perry 1988:23).
In his correspondence Gotse Delchev often states clearly and simply, "We are
Bulgarians" (MacDermott 1978:192,273).


And here:


For fair use only.

http://members.tripod.com/~dimobetchev/documents/ilinden.htm

" Considering the critical and terrible situation that the Bulgarian
population of the Bitola Vilayet found itself in and following the ravages
and cruelties done by the Turkish troops and irregulars, ... considering
the fact that everything Bulgarian runs the risk of perishing and
disappearing without a trace because of violence, hunger, and the upcoming
misery, the Head Quarters finds it to be its obligation to draw the
attention of the respected Bulgarian government to the pernicious
consequences vis-a-vis the Bulgarian nation, in case the latter does not
fulfill its duty towards its brethren of race here in an imposing fashion
which is necessary by virtue of the present ordeal for the common Bulgarian
Fatherland...

...Being in command of our people's movement, we appeal to you on behalf of
the enslaved Bulgarian to help him in the most effective way - by waging
war.We believe that the response of the people in free Bulgaria will be the
same.

... No bulgarian school is opened, neither will it be opened... Nobody
thinks of education when he is outlawed by the state because he bears the
name Bulgar...


Waiting for your patriotic intervention, we are pleased to inform you that
we have in our disposition the armed forces we have spared by now.

The Head Quarters of the Ilinden Uprising"

Damian GRUEV, Boris SARAFOV, Atanas LOZANTCHEV

This memorandum was handed to Dr.Kozhuharov, the Bulgarian consul in Bitola,

and transmitted by him to the government in Sofia with report N441 from
September 17th, 1903. "

And here:


http://www.bulgaria.com/VMRO/document.htm

http://www.bulgaria.com/VMRO/documen1.htm

http://www.bulgaria.com/VMRO/documen2.htm

http://www.bulgaria.com/VMRO/documen3.htm

http://www.bulgaria.com/VMRO/drzhava.htm

http://www.bulgaria.com/VMRO/exarchy.htm

http://w3.tyenet.com/kozlich/mapovska4a.htm

And finally here

http://www.bulgaria.com/VMRO/bitola06.htm

http://www.historymuseum.org/items.php3?nid=199&name=ochrid



from: Spirit of Truth

(using June's e-mail to communicate to you)!
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